[ViktorG]

Check out what @BRX has been hiding from us!

 

[BRX]

I wasn't hiding anything lol it was posted all over social media in August. Truck is currently in the Mediterranean. Should be here mid February. I was gonna make a new thread once it's all cleaned up and looking good again.

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[ViktorG]

I was gonna make a new thread once it's all cleaned up and looking good again.

Man, that thing is going to be SICK!
Low 10s or even 9s if you can hook up, for sure.
I'd like to see the dyno chart, and lots of pics of the setup as well as the 1/4 mile time once you run her down the strip. >

 

[BRX]

Man, that thing is going to be SICK!
Low 10s or even 9s if you can hook up, for sure.
I'd like to see the dyno chart, and lots of pics of the setup as well as the 1/4 mile time once you run her down the strip. >

Here is the Dyno chart. I'm hoping to hit 9s this March.

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[freudie1]

Why are you still using an aftermarket ECM and transmission controller?

 

[BRX]

Why are you still using an aftermarket ECM and transmission controller?

Why not? I don't think it's possible to have my setup running on the stock ECU. The boost controllers won't work without a piggy back at least along with the flex fuel sensor for E85.

If you haven't highly modified a Tundra you'll notice that eventually they'll start hitting the rev limiter before shifting. Even now that the stock ECU is able to be tuned to adjust shifting it's simply a band aid and not as perfect as having two ECUs communicating to decide how fast or firm the shifting needs to be.

Bigger injectors are also hard if not impossible to tune with the stock ECU.

Even if all of that is not enough to switch to a standalone, the standalone is simply much easier to deal with as it responds immediately to changes rather than having to flash a new map every few minutes.

However, there is one single down side to the Haltech standalone. No cruise control with drive by wire. With a more expensive Motec ECU it might be possible but for now I'll settle for good ol' cruising with my foot on the pedal until Haltech comes out with a cruise control update.

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[Wacked]

Nice!!

 

[freudie1]

Here we go........

Why not? I don't think it's possible to have my setup running on the stock ECU. The boost controllers won't work without a piggy back at least along with the flex fuel sensor for E85.

What? Boost controllers are based on boost level (and sometimes gear as well). How does using an aftermarket boost controller(s) negate the use of the OEM ECM? It doesn't. The OEM ECM most certainly has table resolution to account for above ambient pressure (i.e. boost) in regards to timing and fuel control. [/QUOTE]

If you haven't highly modified a Tundra you'll notice that eventually they'll start hitting the rev limiter before shifting. Even now that the stock ECU is able to be tuned to adjust shifting it's simply a band aid and not as perfect as having two ECUs communicating to decide how fast or firm the shifting needs to be.

How does your shops inability to modify the OEM ECM shift tables = needing "two ECU's communicating" for proper shift points? It doesn't. IF you have the ability to modify said shift tables (and you aren't dealing with a mechanical issue/hitting limits of stock transmission) then this is a non factor.

Bigger injectors are also hard if not impossible to tune with the stock ECU.

Since when? You modify the appropriate tables (deadtime, etc) and move on your way. How do you think the factory sold the TRD (Magnuson) supercharger kit?

Even if all of that is not enough to switch to a standalone, the standalone is simply much easier to deal with as it responds immediately to changes rather than having to flash a new map every few minutes.

I've calibrated vehicles with both aftermarket and OEM controllers. The minute or two for most modern ECM to flash are trivial. I can save calibrations and swap between in the pit (or garage for street driven) and log results. Not seeing the point here.

However, there is one single down side to the Haltech standalone. No cruise control with drive by wire. With a more expensive Motec ECU it might be possible but for now I'll settle for good ol' cruising with my foot on the pedal until Haltech comes out with a cruise control update.

You should be more worried about knock sensors, knock retard, etc being weak or non existent with most aftermarket controllers (Motec is in a league of it's own, but if you are spending $10g + for a controller you are likely a professional/sponsored team).

I would be VERY careful with this build. Sounds like an all out max effort drag race build (well minus the actual safety equipment such as a cage.......) that you are trying to build.

I've said my piece. Was just curious why you still went the aftermarket controller route now that actual OEM ECM calibration capability is in the wild (I mentioned this was under wraps a few years ago to you and you laughed at me).

 

[BRX]

Here we go........



What? Boost controllers are based on boost level (and sometimes gear as well). How does using an aftermarket boost controller(s) negate the use of the OEM ECM? It doesn't. The OEM ECM most certainly has table resolution to account for above ambient pressure (i.e. boost) in regards to timing and fuel control.



How does your shops inability to modify the OEM ECM shift tables = needing "two ECU's communicating" for proper shift points? It doesn't. IF you have the ability to modify said shift tables (and you aren't dealing with a mechanical issue/hitting limits of stock transmission) then this is a non factor.




Since when? You modify the appropriate tables (deadtime, etc) and move on your way. How do you think the factory sold the TRD (Magnuson) supercharger kit?



I've calibrated vehicles with both aftermarket and OEM controllers. The minute or two for most modern ECM to flash are trivial. I can save calibrations and swap between in the pit (or garage for street driven) and log results. Not seeing the point here.



You should be more worried about knock sensors, knock retard, etc being weak or non existent with most aftermarket controllers (Motec is in a league of it's own, but if you are spending $10g + for a controller you are likely a professional/sponsored team).

I would be VERY careful with this build. Sounds like an all out max effort drag race build (well minus the actual safety equipment such as a cage.......) that you are trying to build.

I've said my piece. Was just curious why you still went the aftermarket controller route now that actual OEM ECM calibration capability is in the wild (I mentioned this was under wraps a few years ago to you and you laughed at me).

Listen, buddy, I remember you from a few years ago. Let's not turn this thread into that one. You seem to be going deep into the issue when it's really simple.

First let's put this out of the way. I am no tuner. I have the minimum basic knowledge to know how an engine is tuned. I never claimed I tuned the truck.

Now, back in 2014 there were no available options to tune the factory ECU. Now that the encryption is out multiple companies have came out with a solution. I've seen them all or at least most of them. Every shop here in Dubai has one variation of it. Currently there are two in the US that are publicly known and I asked one of them and he said my build is better off with a standalone for the time being.

Now I do get where you're coming from but I don't know why you are so obsessed with the OEM ECU. Even though it is cracked now it's simply not ready to handle a build like this. Especially here in the UAE where tuners as I said can't work with any other injector and instead go with methanol injection along with piggybacks for additional fuel lol. I'm not risking my build by going to such tuners or use it as a learning tool for myself simple as that.

Now regarding the other stuff I mentioned, boost controllers, different maps, shift points, etc.

It's simply for convenience. When the stock ECU has the capability to hold 3 different maps that can change with a simple switch and can actually display boost values and use them as a reference and modify shift points based on those different maps and work with an external flex fuel sensor and create failsafe measure when everything goes wrong and have launch control and and and.... then sure, a standalone would be a waste of money.

I have seen the capability of Ecutek on an 86/BRZ and it has everything a standalone can offer with the exception of real time map modification. I honestly would have never went to a standalone if such software was available in the market for a Tundra. But even in the 86/BRZ world a standalone is always the next step for simply ease of tunability and reliability to handle more power. I'm not saying the stock ECU can't handle it but if you're pushing more than 600hp on that platform you're usually running a Motec at that point.

My turbo 86 had a built engine with a turbo kit. 2 maps that I can change on the fly, launch control, electronic boost control and bigger injectors. Non of which I have seen on a Tundra here or elsewhere and I'm not willing to bet my 1000hp truck on it to be a test mule.

And yes all knock sensors are working, one of them was damaged actually and was replaced before the tuning began.

I have however swapped a 5.7 into my 86 and am currently using the OEM Tundra ECU and I had first hand experience with the tuning software. It's almost there but not quite. Still ways to go before replacing a standalone but they'll get there eventually. Until then I'm happy how the truck sits.



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[RyteSyde]

HAHA it's been ages since I've been here and I seem to recall you were going to grenade your toy back then too BRX. Good to see it's only gotten better in the last few years B

 

[BRX]

HAHA it's been ages since I've been here and I seem to recall you were going to grenade your toy back then too BRX. Good to see it's only gotten better in the last few years B

I only blew a head gasket last time. This time it's gonna be all 8 rods through the block at the drag strip going 140MPH. You know how we Arabs like our explosions

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[SeanScott]

Awesome.

 

[Mr. Creosote]

You know how we Arabs like our explosions

That would be a stereotype.

.................

 

[freudie1]

Listen, buddy, I remember you from a few years ago. Let's not turn this thread into that one. You seem to be going deep into the issue when it's really simple.

I was trying to save people a lot of time and money reading about your "success".

First let's put this out of the way. I am no tuner. I have the minimum basic knowledge to know how an engine is tuned. I never claimed I tuned the truck.

This I agree, you are clearly not. However you certainly like to argue "facts" about tuning with an engine calibrator that has over 20 years of experience (me) when I was simply trying to help.

Now, back in 2014 there were no available options to tune the factory ECU. Now that the encryption is out multiple companies have came out with a solution. I've seen them all or at least most of them. Every shop here in Dubai has one variation of it. Currently there are two in the US that are publicly known and I asked one of them and he said my build is better off with a standalone for the time being.

YES there were, YOU just didn't know where/who to go/ask. I digress...

Now I do get where you're coming from but I don't know why you are so obsessed with the OEM ECU. Even though it is cracked now it's simply not ready to handle a build like this. Especially here in the UAE where tuners as I said can't work with any other injector and instead go with methanol injection along with piggybacks for additional fuel lol. I'm not risking my build by going to such tuners or use it as a learning tool for myself simple as that.

"Obsessed with the OEM ECU"? Not obsessed, just trying to get you in the right direction. The OEM ECU is almost always better than aftermarket controllers regardless of platform. People choose to ignore this due to either marketing (from said aftermarket companies) OR lack of capability or ability to modify the OEM ECU calibration. I guarantee there is infinitely more R&D (and quality) in the OEM unit.

Now regarding the other stuff I mentioned, boost controllers, different maps, shift points, etc.

It's simply for convenience. When the stock ECU has the capability to hold 3 different maps that can change with a simple switch and can actually display boost values and use them as a reference and modify shift points based on those different maps and work with an external flex fuel sensor and create failsafe measure when everything goes wrong and have launch control and and and.... then sure, a standalone would be a waste of money.

That's called using a laptop and loading a cal file. If you need a switch instead of a laptop I suspect you haven't drag raced a high horsepower platform. When I'm at the track I have a laptop (or black box logger) logging the run, then I analyze in the pit, make changes (if needed) to the cal, reload, then run again. Why would I want to be limited by a "switch"?

Not sure what you are referring to in relation to use of a flex fuel sensor. Are you relying on a fuel sensor to determine what fuel type you are running and have the calibration account for it? ON A 1000+ HORSEPOWER BUILD? Seriously!?

"Failsafes".....what exactly are you expecting from this? Trust me, at your power level if you are way off on timing tables and/or spark knock occurence you are likely windowing your block. You can't prevent knock with a knock sensor you can only detect it AFTER it occurs and then react accordingly (i.e. KR/etc). Hopefully you tune conservatively to prevent major catastrophe. Are you looking for a controller that backs down if your AFR goes too lean? Once again, probably too late at your horsepower levels. You need to focus more on conservative and consecutive shakedown runs to analyze data and adjust. At any rate you are likely to go boom. You are in fairly uncharted territory with this platform and I suspect block shift will be your enemy (you didn't indicate that you are running a filled block or even half filled, hence I don't believe the longevity of your block will be very long IF you don't ventilate it first with aggressive timing tables).

I have seen the capability of Ecutek on an 86/BRZ and it has everything a standalone can offer with the exception of real time map modification. I honestly would have never went to a standalone if such software was available in the market for a Tundra. But even in the 86/BRZ world a standalone is always the next step for simply ease of tunability and reliability to handle more power. I'm not saying the stock ECU can't handle it but if you're pushing more than 600hp on that platform you're usually running a Motec at that point.

I can point you to cars from the 90's that run OEM ECUs (much simpler in technology that what our Tundras have) that are well past 600 horsepower reliably. Motec is for the pros. Go google Grand Nationals and DSMs. You are in for a treat.

My turbo 86 had a built engine with a turbo kit. 2 maps that I can change on the fly, launch control, electronic boost control and bigger injectors. Non of which I have seen on a Tundra here or elsewhere and I'm not willing to bet my 1000hp truck on it to be a test mule.

You have the wrong mindset. When pushing the envelope this far with a fairly stock shortblock you ARE a "test mule" regardless of controller. You will undoubtedly find all kinds of weaknesses (refer to my aforementioned comment about not running a filled block at this level).

And yes all knock sensors are working, one of them was damaged actually and was replaced before the tuning began.

I will agree to disagree here. The aftermarket knock sensors are no where near as fast or accurate as the OEM system. Recall, no system can tell you about knock BEFORE it happens, only after. It's how fast and WHAT your controller does after knock events are detected that matter.

I have however swapped a 5.7 into my 86 and am currently using the OEM Tundra ECU and I had first hand experience with the tuning software. It's almost there but not quite. Still ways to go before replacing a standalone but they'll get there eventually. Until then I'm happy how the truck sits.

Your opinion....however not the opinion of TRD racing teams, several undercover tuners, and your truly. I wish I had more time and less cars to prove this with my own truck. Maybe you are sparking a flame......just what I need....MORE projects (Doh!).

 

[Mr. Creosote]

Knock --->

.

 

[pryme]

How stock is the engine/internals?

Testimate to the durability.

 

[restosud]

I was trying to save people a lot of time and money reading about your "success".



This I agree, you are clearly not. However you certainly like to argue "facts" about tuning with an engine calibrator that has over 20 years of experience (me) when I was simply trying to help.



YES there were, YOU just didn't know where/who to go/ask. I digress...



"Obsessed with the OEM ECU"? Not obsessed, just trying to get you in the right direction. The OEM ECU is almost always better than aftermarket controllers regardless of platform. People choose to ignore this due to either marketing (from said aftermarket companies) OR lack of capability or ability to modify the OEM ECU calibration. I guarantee there is infinitely more R&D (and quality) in the OEM unit.



That's called using a laptop and loading a cal file. If you need a switch instead of a laptop I suspect you haven't drag raced a high horsepower platform. When I'm at the track I have a laptop (or black box logger) logging the run, then I analyze in the pit, make changes (if needed) to the cal, reload, then run again. Why would I want to be limited by a "switch"?

Not sure what you are referring to in relation to use of a flex fuel sensor. Are you relying on a fuel sensor to determine what fuel type you are running and have the calibration account for it? ON A 1000+ HORSEPOWER BUILD? Seriously!?

"Failsafes".....what exactly are you expecting from this? Trust me, at your power level if you are way off on timing tables and/or spark knock occurence you are likely windowing your block. You can't prevent knock with a knock sensor you can only detect it AFTER it occurs and then react accordingly (i.e. KR/etc). Hopefully you tune conservatively to prevent major catastrophe. Are you looking for a controller that backs down if your AFR goes too lean? Once again, probably too late at your horsepower levels. You need to focus more on conservative and consecutive shakedown runs to analyze data and adjust. At any rate you are likely to go boom. You are in fairly uncharted territory with this platform and I suspect block shift will be your enemy (you didn't indicate that you are running a filled block or even half filled, hence I don't believe the longevity of your block will be very long IF you don't ventilate it first with aggressive timing tables).



I can point you to cars from the 90's that run OEM ECUs (much simpler in technology that what our Tundras have) that are well past 600 horsepower reliably. Motec is for the pros. Go google Grand Nationals and DSMs. You are in for a treat.



You have the wrong mindset. When pushing the envelope this far with a fairly stock shortblock you ARE a "test mule" regardless of controller. You will undoubtedly find all kinds of weaknesses (refer to my aforementioned comment about not running a filled block at this level).



I will agree to disagree here. The aftermarket knock sensors are no where near as fast or accurate as the OEM system. Recall, no system can tell you about knock BEFORE it happens, only after. It's how fast and WHAT your controller does after knock events are detected that matter.



Your opinion....however not the opinion of TRD racing teams, several undercover tuners, and your truly. I wish I had more time and less cars to prove this with my own truck. Maybe you are sparking a flame......just what I need....MORE projects (Doh!).

so, who EXACTLY in 2014 and who today can offer those tuning services you mention?

 

[BRX]

I was trying to save people a lot of time and money reading about your "success".

I never called it a success I just posted my results. However if you can show me a stock block tundra run an 11.6 or even an 11.8 in a 1/4 mile then you can prove how much of a failure my project was. Just a few months ago my stock record was broken by a fully built tundra making +700hp and he ran an 11.4. guess what he was using to run the engine? A Motec M150.

This I agree, you are clearly not. However you certainly like to argue "facts" about tuning with an engine calibrator that has over 20 years of experience (me) when I was simply trying to help.

I have no problem with you helping. What I do have a problem with is your attitude. I was one of two people running 11s in these truck. I knew nothing about racing in 2012 when I installed the Supercharger and I had the quickest truck by the end of the year not due to lack of competition, there were many Tundras running mid-low 12s with their own bolt-ons but because I enjoyed it and I started testing new ones on my own. I did have the resources to pull it off and a lot of info from this forum helped a ton too.

Then you came a long and claimed that you know everything when you are not familiar with this platform and have nothing to prove otherwise other than "20 years of experience". Well sorry I'm only 25, I guess I should have started calibrating engines when I was 5 to be able to hold a candle to you.

To put it short, you're not wrong. You're just an asshole.

YES there were, YOU just didn't know where/who to go/ask. I digress...

The only tuners available then were Bully dog and countless people asked them for custom tuning with no avail. IF, and it's a big IF, there were any you'd have to pay a shit ton of money to test a beta software that is until this day is not as good as any other calibrator out there for other platforms like for example the BRZ/86.

"Obsessed with the OEM ECU"? Not obsessed, just trying to get you in the right direction. The OEM ECU is almost always better than aftermarket controllers regardless of platform. People choose to ignore this due to either marketing (from said aftermarket companies) OR lack of capability or ability to modify the OEM ECU calibration. I guarantee there is infinitely more R&D (and quality) in the OEM unit.

Let's try it this way, you said yourself "Motec is for the pros" right? You're claiming Motec is much more superior than a Haltech? If that's the case then I'm sorry but you have no idea what you're talking about.

Regardless, a Haltech Elite 2500 is and always will be better than the stock ECU mainly as you said from lack of capability. I'm still asking you to prove me wrong. Show me some evidence, an actual Tundra making at least 700hp without any piggybacks.

That's called using a laptop and loading a cal file. If you need a switch instead of a laptop I suspect you haven't drag raced a high horsepower platform. When I'm at the track I have a laptop (or black box logger) logging the run, then I analyze in the pit, make changes (if needed) to the cal, reload, then run again. Why would I want to be limited by a "switch"?

Not sure what you are referring to in relation to use of a flex fuel sensor. Are you relying on a fuel sensor to determine what fuel type you are running and have the calibration account for it? ON A 1000+ HORSEPOWER BUILD? Seriously!?

No, this would be my first +1000hp vehicle. This will also be a street, daily driven truck. I have 2 maps, a low boost/low octane map that runs on 91. And high-mid boost map that runs on 94 and using a flex fuel sensor can also run on E85.

The first map gets up to about 600HP which I will mostly use for driving around town and on the highway. And when I feel like it I can bump it up to 800HP with a flick of a switch assuming I have 94 octane gas in the tank which is fairly common here and I always use unless I'm low on fuel and the only option is 91/92. And when I'm heading to the track I can fill up with E85 and with the help of the flex fuel sensor it can go up to +1000HP if I'm running purely on E85.

Unless you have been living under a rock for the past decade, this is very common now in the modified car world and even the flex fuel Tundra's come with this option from the factory. So even your prized divine OEM ECU uses this method to calibrate maps. 1000HP or a million HP, if your tuner knows what he's doing you should be fine running 15% or 100% ethanol.

I also know how to flash a calibration file. I've done hundreds on my 86. The process gets old real fast after the 1st couple of times. I'll be doing 2-3 passes with on the fly calibration by the time it takes to flash one calibration file on an OEM ECU.

"Failsafes".....what exactly are you expecting from this? Trust me, at your power level if you are way off on timing tables and/or spark knock occurence you are likely windowing your block. You can't prevent knock with a knock sensor you can only detect it AFTER it occurs and then react accordingly (i.e. KR/etc). Hopefully you tune conservatively to prevent major catastrophe. Are you looking for a controller that backs down if your AFR goes too lean? Once again, probably too late at your horsepower levels. You need to focus more on conservative and consecutive shakedown runs to analyze data and adjust. At any rate you are likely to go boom. You are in fairly uncharted territory with this platform and I suspect block shift will be your enemy (you didn't indicate that you are running a filled block or even half filled, hence I don't believe the longevity of your block will be very long IF you don't ventilate it first with aggressive timing tables).

"You have the wrong mindset. When pushing the envelope this far with a fairly stock shortblock you ARE a "test mule" regardless of controller. You will undoubtedly find all kinds of weaknesses (refer to my aforementioned comment about not running a filled block at this level).

As I mentioned before, it can run at 600HP if I want and at that power level a detected failure of some sort can save the engine.

I'm also using the factory knock sensors with the Haltech. Not sure why you insist on using knock sensors on the OEM ECU but now that I'm using it it with an aftermarket ECU its pointless?!

My block is unsleeved and I don't plan to fill it with anything from darton as they do shift sooner or later. I might do it on a future block but it would be by the same guys who did that Land Speed Cruiser with +2000HP. Guess what that Toyota TRD built truck is using to run the engine? A Motec as well, not the OEM ECU. Crazy isn't it?! It's as if they're saying an aftermarket ECU is better than the one that came in the truck?! UNBELIEVABLE!!!

I will be logging my first initial passes however the truck has done numerous 1000hp runs on the dyno and isn't aggressively tuned at all. The truck wanted to make power up top but we limited it to 6700RPM as we didn't want to stress the valve train beyond that. Our Target was 1000whp so we left it at that.

My truck is a test mule powertrain wise. I'm not gonna test a tunning software at 1000HP when I can use a Haltech that is able to manage +2000HP vehicles reliably.

I can point you to cars from the 90's that run OEM ECUs (much simpler in technology that what our Tundras have) that are well past 600 horsepower reliably. Motec is for the pros. Go google Grand Nationals and DSMs. You are in for a treat.

I'm sure they do, an OEM ECU can run at high horsepower I never said it can't. However, if you had to choose between a Motec and the OEM ECU regardless of cost which would you chose? Well I chose the Haltech which is basically the same thing as a Motec.

II will agree to disagree here. The aftermarket knock sensors are no where near as fast or accurate as the OEM system. Recall, no system can tell you about knock BEFORE it happens, only after. It's how fast and WHAT your controller does after knock events are detected that matter.

As I said I'm using the OEM knock sensors. And I'm pretty sure the Haltech can detect knock at a much higher rate than the OEM ECU so it is at least detecting knock at the same rate.

IIYour opinion....however not the opinion of TRD racing teams, several undercover tuners, and your truly. I wish I had more time and less cars to prove this with my own truck. Maybe you are sparking a flame......just what I need....MORE projects (Doh!).

Except TRD went with an aftermarket ECU on their High HP build. Please do, god knows there aren't enough people pushing these trucks to the limit.

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[BRX]

How stock is the engine/internals?

Testimate to the durability.

From experience, the stock engine is capable of handling at most 560whp for awhile before blowing a head gasket. Rods aren't that beefy either but they held fine along with the pistons at that power level. Transmission starts slipping at about 650WTQ. Some trucks swapped in newer transmission from 2017 model trucks and made them hold at above 700WTQ.

My engine is fully built with the exception of cams and the crankshaft. It's unsleeved and bored by 0.015" only to keep as much meat as possible. Everything else has been replaced with more beefy parts. CP pistons, Carrillo rods, ISF titanium valves, Tomei valve springs, ACL Mai bearings, WPC coated rod bearings, billet intake manifold, port and polished heads.

Transmission is machined to hold more clutch packs along with a 3000 stall converter. Carbon fiber driveshaft. Stock rear end but with an ARB locker for easier burnouts.

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[BRX]

so, who EXACTLY in 2014 and who today can offer those tuning services you mention?

DAP and Orange Virus tuning are the only ones I know who offer tundra tuning in the states at the moment. There might be more but they're not as known. All of them however showed up in 2017 not 2014.

The software used here in Dubai by most shops is made by a Russian Company called BitBox. They'll send you a key along with the software and you can purchase packages to be able to tune different years/models of vehicles. This also showed up in 2016.

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