trans fluid condition.

2712 Views 33 Replies 12 Participants Last post by [email protected], 3 mo ago

jmansouri

Discussion Starter · 3 mo ago

Accidently posted in the DIY yesterday, but wanted to share my photo of trans fluid at 52k (drain/fill) and see what others look like when they have changed their "lifetime" fluid. I do a fair amount of towing which is why I wanted to get this done. The new WS fluid was bright pink/red.

Fluid Gas Automotive tire Pipe Plumbing

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jmansouri

Discussion Starter · #2 · 3 mo ago

Here's one additional smaller glass jar picture

Drinkware Tableware Liquid Fluid Coffee

Sent from my SM-N960U using Tapatalk

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310z

· #3 · 3 mo ago

That's motor oil drained from a diesel with 10,000 miles on it right?
OK joking aside, this is my experience. Asked Toyota dealer to change around 65,000 miles and I was told it does not need to be done. At around 100,000 miles I asked a Toyota dealer to change the trans fluid. I was billed for it but I am sure it was never done. At around 160,000 miles the truck went into limp mode with no codes.

Took it to a independent Toyoda shop owned by a Toyota Master Mechanic and asked to have the fluid changed. Of course a power flush was done and I was told that the fluid was black. A few thousand miles later I was getting the check engine light, codes were transmission slipping in reverse, 1, 5, and 6 gears, replaced transmission. Had the new transmission fluid changed at 50,000 miles and the fluid looked red and new.

Attempted to change a friends trans filter and fluid in the pan and one pan bolt broke after working it a bit, then two others were tight after breaking them loose. So I left the pan on and drained the pan and the fluid was black. The forever transmission fluid ( or until it is out of warranty) in the sealed transmission seems to be the Tundras down fall.

Do transmission fluid changes at least every 50,000 miles is what I am going with. My 2000 Tundra had a trans dip stick and a drain bolt on the pan. I changed the trans fluid from the pan with every other oil change at 3500 mile intervals, so 7,000 miles on the trans fluid. It was easy to keep it fresh on that truck.

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jmansouri

Discussion Starter · #4 · 3 mo ago

Yeah I don't get why Toyota would take this stance... I get that these trucks and transmissions are reliable, but they could make money on the trans service like they do everything else. I'm planning to do annual drain and fills going forward. The only question I have is whether I should do multiple drain and fills now, or will the annual ones be enough to keep me in good shape, and actually improving over time.

310z

· #5 · 3 mo ago

I would do drain and fills until it is red and then annual or 50,000 miles.
For my friend's truck that was purchased about six weeks ago with 104,000 on it we will be taking it to a Transmission shop and the owner said they will remove the pan and easy out or weld nuts to the broken bolts so they can get the remaining stud out. Then the filter can be changed and new fluids added. Once the broken pan bolt issues is resolved and never seize is on the pan bolts changing the pan fluid and filter will be easy from then on.

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Danny3737

· #6 · 3 mo ago

It’s really hard to tell the color in the jar. The best way is to put a drop of used and a drop of new next to each other on a white paper towel.

Textile Creative arts Beige Wood Pattern

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ppyzyna

· #7 · 3 mo ago

You could send a sample to Blackstone Labs and get a report on it. I am due to change mine and I already have the WS Toyota oil and a Wix 'filter'. ( I am in a 'no salt' zone and have been spraying PB-Blaster on pan bolts, they look okay.). I am planning to send a sample for analysis.

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AJD

· #8 · 3 mo ago

I've got a 2012 Tundra with the 6 spd Aisin tran as well. I did a fluid exchange (not Flush) about 20k mi ago when the truck had ~50k mi on it. I checked the condition of the tran fluid by loosening the check plug and it was just as black as yours... only a hint of red to it. I did a drain and fill with WS (almost 4 quarts exactly) and proceeded to toss and turn all night! lol. Couldn't believe how dark it was and have gotten the same "its forever fluid" from the dealerships as well. Guess they want to sell new 7k trans instead of a $200 fluid change. I took the truck to a local master Toyota/lexus shop and had them replace all ~12 quarts. They dont power flush by pumping the fluid into the trans, they disconnect the trans cooler line and let the trans pump out the old fluid while they pump in new fluid through the fill plug. No problems from this method so far. Will do a fluid change every 50k going forward as well. You could probably go 60-70k if you dont do any towing but I live in FL and tow a boat pretty often so for me its cheap insurance. If you have a truck with >100k on it, I would just do the drain and fill method. The tran is already broken in at that point, the clutch packs are worn and if you put in all new fluid it will often start slipping. Also I have been told there is no need to remove Gen 2 trans pans to replace the filter. The filter is more of a screen... no need to do if you are changing fluid regularly.

Agree the sealed system / no dipstick is a major pain... Wait till there is no oil dipstick! Yeah thats right, no oil dipstick and thats the direction its going. They are already doing it on some German vehicles. To check it its going to be the same type of procedure as the transmission is now, certain temp, open check bolt, wait for fluid stream, count the drips. Ridiculous.

🖕

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xsnrg714

· #9 · 3 mo ago

Drain/ Fill exact amount that you drain, replace with new. Just make sure the Fill Plug can be loosened first. With Emergency Brake & Foot Brake depressed, slowly shift thru all gears twice. Let it sit a couple hours.
Repeat.
Don't start with hot Tranny as this fluid volume expands a bit at full running temp.
MEASURE DRAINED CAREFULLY AND SAVE IN CLEAN CONTAINER!
After 2nd D/F you will be good for at least another 30-40K miles.
As long as You have owned since Brand New and know NOBODY ELSE has touched YOUR Tranny, you can rest assured the Original Factory Fill is at correct level.
No need to drop pan or replace filter at this exchange. Maybe second, definitely 3rd since you tow.
Smart move on your part to start doing service using OEM WS this early.
And as you do tow, make sure to also change Engine Oil (Full Synthetic) and Filter every 5K or earlier.
And take a peak/sniff of Radiator Fluid while you're in there, as well as rest of levels. I would recommend replacing both difs and Transfer Case oils as well for safest operation and longevity. And Grease All U Joints/Spider Zircs on Drive Shaft!
When servicing brakes, do flush a few ounces thru each Caliper, as that's where the most heat/wear occurs, again especially because you tow.

She should run forever!
Especially if the Stealership never touches it and you DIY.
😉

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ppyzyna

· #10 · 3 mo ago

One positive thing about dropping the pan is that you can see what has accumulated on the magnets and bottom of pan. Also, if you have considered a shift-kit, you would need to drop the pan. That pump-out method described sounds like the best way to go to get a thorough ATF change.

Mikecol

· #11 · 3 mo ago

So, the Tundra has a sealed transmission. That means that the fluid is not allowed to freely interact with air. The oxygen in air degrades the fluid over time and it has been known since the 1950's that if you seal transmission fluid from air, it is not degraded by the oxygen. The air that is in the transmission when assembled does interact with the fluid until the oxygen is used up and you are left with an inert atmosphere of nitrogen that protects the fluid.

In a sealed transmission, if you don't tow heavy, off road your truck, and drive in such a way that you minimize shifts and keep the torque converter locked up, your transmission fluid will last a lifetime, which probably means several hundred thousands of miles.

However, if you tow heavy, drive your truck so it is constantly shifting or the torque converter is running unlocked a lot (ie, around town driving, off-roading, etc.), the fluid is being stressed through the torque converter and will wear over time and need to be replaced. In these situations, you will need to replace your fluid.

It is normal for transmission fluid to turn maroon in color. But when it turns brown or black, that is bad. The brown/black is caused by the transmission fluid getting burnt from heat and stress and indicates that you definitely need to have the fluid changed and may have done damage to your transmission.

Personally, I only occasionally tow a light travel trailer and when I do, I keep the torque converter locked up and drive it easy. When I am not towing, I basically and driving long distance on highways with little to no stress on the transmission. In my case, I think a drop the pan, replace the filter and fluid in the pan, at about 100-150K interval is sufficient for my transmission fluid to last several hundred thousand miles (and that is what I have done so far and am at 180K and no issues).

But if you are in town driving, towing heavy and hard, off-roading, etc, you should change your fluid more often and consider a full fluid change instead of just replacing what is in the pan.

Last, you won't hurt anything by changing the fluid more often than needed. It just costs money. But you can damage a sealed transmission if you don't change it right and don't get the level right, so make sure you know what you are doing or that your mechanic knows what they are doing. It is not an easy process. I had mine done at the dealership and the filter/pan fluid change was under $200. I am sure a full fluid change is probably double that price.

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ppyzyna

· #12 · 3 mo ago

Mikecol said:
But if you are in town driving, towing heavy and hard, off-roading, etc, you should change your fluid more often and consider a full fluid change instead of just replacing what is in the pan.

I will prefer to do the change myself... However, I have some prepaid Oil Sample kits from Blackstone Labs, so as soon as I can I will suction out a sample thru the fill plug opening, (only a few ounces) and see what the report says first. I would intend to do a complete change of fluid, either myself or by the local dealer.

ppyzyna

· #13 · 3 mo ago

Anyway, I am wondering how the transmission, being "sealed', handles the change in internal pressure due to expansion and contraction of the trans fluid. I could not find an answer in my research. I would think it would need some sort of expansion tank. Everything else filled with oil in the drivetrain has a breather fitting of some kind.

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Mikecol

· #14 · 3 mo ago (Edited)

ppyzyna said:
Anyway, I am wondering how the transmission, being "sealed', handles the change in internal pressure due to expansion and contraction of the trans fluid. I could not find an answer in my research. I would think it would need some sort of expansion tank. Everything else filled with oil in the drivetrain has a breather fitting of some kind.

The air space in the transmission really regulates the pressure and allows for expansion and contraction of the fluid. And while the fluid does expand some, the transmission case also grows with temperature and offsets some of that expansion.

To calculate the air space pressure, you can use the equation pv=nRT to calculate the pressure created in the transmission from the change in temperature. V is volume and stays constant and n and R are fluid properties and so they stay constant as well. When you solve the equations, all the constants cancel out and you are left with p1(T2)/T1 = p2. T and p are in absolute units, and if we assume the final temperature is about 200F, you end up with 14.7(200+460)/(70+460) = p2 = 18.3 psia, or 3.6 psig.

If you assume the volume of air is reduced by 33% because of the fluid expansion, then you would multiply p2 by V1/V2 or 1.5/1, and the pressure would be 5.4 psig.

You can play around with the numbers and see what the pressure would be if the temperature was 300 instead of 200, or if the air space volume were reduced by 50% instead of 33%, but no matter what you do, the pressure is not very much and is easy for the transmission seals to handle.

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Mikecol

· #15 · 3 mo ago

ppyzyna said:
I will prefer to do the change myself... However, I have some prepaid Oil Sample kits from Blackstone Labs, so as soon as I can I will suction out a sample thru the fill plug opening, (only a few ounces) and see what the report says first. I would intend to do a complete change of fluid, either myself or by the local dealer.

When you get the results back, please update this post and let us know what they say along with your driving style so we all have an idea of how much stress your trans fluid has experienced. The more data points we get from people who do the tests, the better.

I am curious how much a test costs. If it's not outrageous, I would love to have mine tested at the next change to see how it looks. My 15 CM 5.7L I would be at about 250k on my next service interval, which is probably 3 years from now, and all but what was in the pan would be original fluid at that point.

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xsnrg714

· #16 · 3 mo ago

Mikecol said:
So, the Tundra has a sealed transmission. That means that the fluid is not allowed to freely interact with air. The oxygen in air degrades the fluid over time and it has been known since the 1950's that if you seal transmission fluid from air, it is not degraded by the oxygen. The air that is in the transmission when assembled does interact with the fluid until the oxygen is used up and you are left with an inert atmosphere of nitrogen that protects the fluid.

In a sealed transmission, if you don't tow heavy, off road your truck, and drive in such a way that you minimize shifts and keep the torque converter locked up, your transmission fluid will last a lifetime, which probably means several hundred thousands of miles.

However, if you tow heavy, drive your truck so it is constantly shifting or the torque converter is running unlocked a lot (ie, around town driving, off-roading, etc.), the fluid is being stressed through the torque converter and will wear over time and need to be replaced. In these situations, you will need to replace your fluid.

It is normal for transmission fluid to turn maroon in color. But when it turns brown or black, that is bad. The brown/black is caused by the transmission fluid getting burnt from heat and stress and indicates that you definitely need to have the fluid changed and may have done damage to your transmission.

Personally, I only occasionally tow a light travel trailer and when I do, I keep the torque converter locked up and drive it easy. When I am not towing, I basically and driving long distance on highways with little to no stress on the transmission. In my case, I think a drop the pan, replace the filter and fluid in the pan, at about 100-150K interval is sufficient for my transmission fluid to last several hundred thousand miles (and that is what I have done so far and am at 180K and no issues).

But if you are in town driving, towing heavy and hard, off-roading, etc, you should change your fluid more often and consider a full fluid change instead of just replacing what is in the pan.

Last, you won't hurt anything by changing the fluid more often than needed. It just costs money. But you can damage a sealed transmission if you don't change it right and don't get the level right, so make sure you know what you are doing or that your mechanic knows what they are doing. It is not an easy process. I had mine done at the dealership and the filter/pan fluid change was under $200. I am sure a full fluid change is probably double that price.

$200 is very inexpensive sounding for a fairly Labor intensive pan drop/filter/5 qt WS fluid service.
You sure they did the job???

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toyturbodiesel

· #17 · 3 mo ago

Transmission has breathers. Heat is the enemy, not oxygen.

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Mikecol

· #18 · 3 mo ago

xsnrg714 said:
$200 is very inexpensive sounding for a fairly Labor intensive pan drop/filter/5 qt WS fluid service.
You sure they did the job???

Yep

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Mikecol

· #19 · 3 mo ago

toyturbodiesel said:
Transmission has breathers. Heat is the enemy, not oxygen.

In a non-sealed transmission, heat, fluid stress, oxygen, and contamination all require the transmission fluid to be changed.

In a sealed transmission, heat, fluid stress, and contamination require the transmission fluid to be changed.

The breathers do not allow the transmission fluid to come in contact with outside air. If they did, it would not be called a sealed transmission.

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toyturbodiesel

· #20 · 3 mo ago

Breathers are for keeping water from entering the unit. Air moving in and out of a breather is normal as operating temps and cooling occur. I've yet to see Toyota use the term "Sealed" and why would they? Cause it's not sealed, it just doesn't have a dipstick.

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