[Johnny 5]

https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2019/01/24/fun-fact-house-democrats-defeated-a-bipartisan-bill-to-pay-federal-workers-during-the-shutdown-n2539969

 

[RRzxter]

Miraculously, in 2016, literally over night, "sanctuary" cities popped up, democrats said it was immoral to put up barriers and it "sends the wrong message to the world about what America stood for" and suddenly it was only women, children and families seeking asylum.
And literally overnight, in 2016, the majority of the country was "not in favor" of a wall or more border security (according to democrats and all the ignorant lemmings that parrot their hypocrisy).
Apparently, the moment Trump took office, all human and drug trafficking stopped abruptly. All illegal crossing of the border stopped. No one has been murdered, raped, robbed, assaulted by or involved in a car accident with anyone who is not a citizen and here illegally.
So, apparently, over night, there's now no reason for border security. No one wants it and there's clearly no need for it.
There was for the last 20 yrs., under the last 3 presidents. But I guess the problem cleared itself up and everyone changed their mind.
Funny, I don't remember sanctuary cities a few years ago. I don't remember any caravans of 1000s traversing all of central America to get here. I don't remember anyone saying it was immoral to secure the border and I don't remember any media or news coverage of children being separated from adults while detained, after being apprehended while crossing illegally. I don't remember it being covered at all during Clinton, Bush, or Obama.
I thought maybe my memory was slipping.
But I don't feel bad now that I see how many other people don't remember any of that either.

 

[sundance]

If walls don't work, lets just start at San Diego and tear the border wall down all the way back to Yuma. In a few months we can sell California to Mexico.

The sell should pay off a large portion of the national debt and provide funding for to secure the rest of the border. Pelosi will lose her speakership because her district is now in Mexico. She can then negotiate with the drug cartels and we can "MOVE ON"..... get it "MOVEON.mx"....

 

[eharri3]

Realities

Donald Trump doesn't want 2000 mile wall from sea to shining sea, he wants a couple hundred miles more in high traffic areas where the physical terrain would allow it to hinder crossings and help the border patrol better allocate man-power.

A wall is not useless, nor it is it a be-all, end-all solution. It could work well in conjunction with more agents and judges, although I think his asylum reforms will be more important to deter Central American Mexicans from abusing it. The goal being, teach the region that dragging children through treacherous border crossings and making bullshit asylum claims aren't a ticket to quick release into the interior so maybe it's time to cut that shit out. The wall is not the most important fix for the problems we have now, but if this pattern reverts back to a norm where standard illegals hopping the fence is the main problem, it will still be there to mitigate that.

When Democrats say they aren't for open borders and they want reasonable measures that are more cost efficient and technologically advanced than a wall, they're lying. Their radical base that wants full un-restricted open borders with no enforcement is holding their feet to the fire to withhold wall money at all costs because it would be a political victory for Donald Trump.

The wall should have been settled 2 years ago but McConnell and Ryan pressured Trump to sign bullshit budgets with the excuse that they wanted to get on to their legislative agenda, about 90% of which failed.

The political conversation in the United States and the Democrat resistance to his attempts to ramp up enforcement has incentivized continued abuse of the asylum system and encouraged minor border crossings.

The radical left now sees that the asylum claims and family units uniquely stress the enforcement and detention capabilities. They hope that if they continue to fight deterrent efforts in court the administration will be left with no option but to institute wide spread catch and release, which sends a signal to the rest of the region that the full scale stampede can truly begin.


Previous comprehensive bills have failed because the country wants to coalesce around something that involves strong enforcement first and then an amnesty down the line once the borders have tightened up and a bunch of deportations have happened, and a clear signal has been sent to the world that trying to sneak in doesn't pay. Elements of both parties have avoided offering such a legislative option. They always try to offer amnesty up front coupled with enforcement efforts that will probably die off in a few years.

The dirty little secret nobody wants to explain is a sizable population of illegal aliens is something elements of both parties always want to maintain. They don't want a day where they all get status and live completely above board. That's because the law would then require you to offer them a minimum wage, proper length work week, over-time, and whatever other benefits the federal state and local governments mandate. In other words, the economic benefits of hiring them go away and we're forced to make hard choices about wages and prices that the political class assumes on our behalf that the market economy can't handle. This is why a reform system that eliminates the possibility of another population of illegals replacing the ones we give relief to may never pass. Many Republicans and Democrats want the door to stay open for the next generation.

 

[Hicklebunny]

Realities

Donald Trump doesn't want 2000 mile wall from sea to shining sea, he wants a couple hundred miles more in high traffic areas where the physical terrain would allow it to hinder crossings and help the border patrol better allocate man-power.

A wall is not useless, nor it is it a be-all, end-all solution. It could work well in conjunction with more agents and judges, although I think his asylum reforms will be more important to deter Central American Mexicans from abusing it. The goal being, teach the region that dragging children through treacherous border crossings and making bullshit asylum claims aren't a ticket to quick release into the interior so maybe it's time to cut that shit out. The wall is not the most important fix for the problems we have now, but if this pattern reverts back to a norm where standard illegals hopping the fence is the main problem, it will still be there to mitigate that.

When Democrats say they aren't for open borders and they want reasonable measures that are more cost efficient and technologically advanced than a wall, they're lying. Their radical base that wants full un-restricted open borders with no enforcement is holding their feet to the fire to withhold wall money at all costs because it would be a political victory for Donald Trump.

The wall should have been settled 2 years ago but McConnell and Ryan pressured Trump to sign bullshit budgets with the excuse that they wanted to get on to their legislative agenda, about 90% of which failed.

The political conversation in the United States and the Democrat resistance to his attempts to ramp up enforcement has incentivized continued abuse of the asylum system and encouraged minor border crossings.

The radical left now sees that the asylum claims and family units uniquely stress the enforcement and detention capabilities. They hope that if they continue to fight deterrent efforts in court the administration will be left with no effort but to institute wide spread catch and release, which sends a signal to the rest of the region that the full scale stampede can truly begin.


Previous comprehensive bills have failed because the country wants to coalesce around something that involves strong enforcement first and then an amnesty down the line once the borders have tightened up and a bunch of deportations have happened, and a clear signal has been sent to the world that trying to sneak in doesn't pay. Elements of both parties have avoided offering such a legislative option, always trying to offer amnesty up front coupled with enforcement efforts that will probably die off in a few years.

The dirty little secret nobody wants to explain is a sizable population of illegal aliens is something elements of both parties always want to maintain. They don't want a day where they all get status and live completely above board. That's because the law would then require you to offer them a minimum wage, proper length work week, over-time, and whatever other benefits the federal state and local governments mandate. This is why a reform system that eliminates the possibility of another population of illegals replacing the ones we give relief to may never pass.

I recall reading an article that said Californian Agriculture would collapse without illegals picking.

 

[eharri3]

I recall reading an article that said Californian Agriculture would collapse without illegals picking.

The left in this country is also pushing a doubling or tripling of the minimum wage. If government is going to do things that have a ripple effect throughout the economy, I am more OK that it's a result of enforcing immigration laws than a result of a bureaucrat in Washington DC making an arbitrary decision about wages that doesn't take free market efficiencies into consideration.

We have mushroom farms around me in one of our more affluent counties. One of my favorite ways of making a lefty's head explode when they complain about the effect all the raids have on prices is to ask what difference there'd be if someone waived a magic wand and created a 30 dollar wage floor on the farms.

Many of them would have no problem with the government telling small business owners tomorrow that they have to triple their lowest paid employee's salary, give them a year of paid leave for the birth of each child and healthcare, but they think armageddon happens if the agricultural industry has to pay a fair wage. Kind of confusing to me.

 

[H2O MAN]

Can't we all just get along, and build a beautiful border wall together.
Enemies are at the gate, and many more are coming.

 

[RRzxter]

They have to oppose everything Trump says/does. Even if it's a policy that already existed or something everyone agreed with just before he took office. They have to make him fail and make the country sorry for wanting him to be President.
They want the whole thing to look like a big mistake and failure and then they can tell everyone that only a carreer politician that "they" pick can do the job and it will be back to business as usual.

 

[RRzxter]

What's Amazing to me is how simple and obvious it all is. Yet, so many people buy into it and even parrot all the horseshit coming from the anti-Trump campaign. And passionately at that. Not many things more ridiculous than seeing an angry mob, screaming and kicking over something that isn't even true or real.
As if they were just born in the last 2 yrs.
It's not surprising, just frustrating and disappointing. This has been going on for a long time and they will continue these tactics because honestly, they work.
It's a testimate to how excitable people are, how impressionable people are, how easily manipulated they are and how short their memory and attention spans are.
The people actively opposing Trump caused this shutdown and they are actively fighting to keep it going. They don't care who suffers.
They want Trump out. They want the country back so they can sell our uranium to Russia, sell all our manufacturing to China, keep all the black people on welfare and in housing projects, keep the mexicans picking our fruit for pennies and keep our prisons full.

 

[halftondra]

Im not confusing anything, I know the difference between asylum and refugees, please read up on it. You don't put stock in Border Patrols agents but listen to what Nancy Pelosy and Chuck Schumer are telling you? I work for the DOJ, I train with many different departments, they say we need a wall to help, believe what you want, if we use your thought process, when the Dr tells you you need an operation but you look to Google for advise.
Again EVERY member there now voted for this in the past, it is their hatred for Trump that's holding them back.
Last, NO ONE is against LEGAL immigration, not sure why that concept is so hard for people to understand?

And no one is for ILLEGAL immigration. It's just a reality that happens because people are so desperate to come to the US.

If you were truly concerned about illegal immigration then the focus wouldn't be on border crossings, but those who overstay their visas, which is about double those who cross the border. And of those caught crossing the border illegally, a percentage are coming back to the US, not arriving for the first time.

I guess it is how you look at illegal immigration. For many it is a black and white, law and order issue. For others it is a humanitarian issue. For still others, they represent a cheap form of labor to be exploited so that us Americans can enjoy relatively cheap produce, housing, gardening, restaurants, hotels etc...There are a ton of industries which rely on this source of income.

I don't much care about Pelosi and Schumer and for you to presume I do, tells me more about how you have bought into the tribal mentality that dominates political/policy discourse. You might not like them, but both have done a lot more to help this country than asshat Trump, who represents all that is lousy in human behavior. And I say that knowing that he has been a life long Democrat who just switched parties because those around him saw a split in the Republican party that he could exploit...with a little help from Putin of course. But I digress....

The doctor analogy is cute, but isn't accurate in this case. It would be more accurate if you had a big toe infection, but the doctor said he wanted to cut off your little toe and then charge you a million dollars to do it. That's a better analogy of what is going on. Or maybe, a better analogy would be that I ask the receptionist to do the diagnosis, since she works in the doctor's office, even though her training and her job have nothing to do with medicine.

What training do you do with the other agencies? Just because you work with people from an agency doesn't mean they are informed on the issue. It's a weak argument.

If you want some kind of protection against people coming across the southern border, first identify the significance of the problem accurately, then come up with a solution that will best deal with it. It isn't a physical wall, so say all the experts who study this in a non-partisan, policy first way.

It's funny to me how you view Schumer and Pelosi as these political beings who just don't want to give Trump a win, but you absolve Trump of the exact same thing. He needs a win and the wall was his big campaign promise. That's all well and good in the context of DC machinations, but to shut down the government over it, is the worst thing to do. IF he was so worried about drugs, MS13 and terrorists coming across the southern border, he wouldn't have knee capped the government who works to keep this stuff in check. We are at greater risk with Trump's stubbornness, not to mention what it actually does to American lives, credit and emotional well-being.

In fact, because of the shutdown, as I was driving up from San Diego, the normal place where you would stop to be checked out, is not manned at all. So how many people are finding their way further into the US? It's way more than zero that's for sure....

Simple answers to complex problems never work. This wall idea is as simple as it gets and it won't do squat to fix the real problem. Wake up and get beyond the easy hatred of Pelosi and Schumer, because that is exactly what the Repubs want you to feel to control you and get your vote so they can stay in power. And the Dems do the exact same thing....This country better find the middle fast before we disintegrate from the inside and it won't have darn thing to do with immigrants, terrorists or MS13.

 

[halftondra]

No they’re exactly the same.

They are not exactly the same...Educate yourself...you have all the power in the world to do so....I don't care what your sense of reality is...that's your world to figure out and I don't really care about winning a debate on a forum...I'm just here to represent another, differently informed view of things and people will do with it what they will. I am under no illusion that anyone will change their minds because it is too big of an ego blow for most to say, "I was wrong about this"....such is the attachment to self-worth people have of their opinions....

 

[Alaskawild]

And no one is for ILLEGAL immigration. It's just a reality that happens because people are so desperate to come to the US.

If you were truly concerned about illegal immigration then the focus wouldn't be on border crossings, but those who overstay their visas, which is about double those who cross the border. And of those caught crossing the border illegally, a percentage are coming back to the US, not arriving for the first time.

I guess it is how you look at illegal immigration. For many it is a black and white, law and order issue. For others it is a humanitarian issue. For still others, they represent a cheap form of labor to be exploited so that us Americans can enjoy relatively cheap produce, housing, gardening, restaurants, hotels etc...There are a ton of industries which rely on this source of income.

I don't much care about Pelosi and Schumer and for you to presume I do, tells me more about how you have bought into the tribal mentality that dominates political/policy discourse. You might not like them, but both have done a lot more to help this country than asshat Trump, who represents all that is lousy in human behavior. And I say that knowing that he has been a life long Democrat who just switched parties because those around him saw a split in the Republican party that he could exploit...with a little help from Putin of course. But I digress....

The doctor analogy is cute, but isn't accurate in this case. It would be more accurate if you had a big toe infection, but the doctor said he wanted to cut off your little toe and then charge you a million dollars to do it. That's a better analogy of what is going on. Or maybe, a better analogy would be that I ask the receptionist to do the diagnosis, since she works in the doctor's office, even though her training and her job have nothing to do with medicine.

What training do you do with the other agencies? Just because you work with people from an agency doesn't mean they are informed on the issue. It's a weak argument.

If you want some kind of protection against people coming across the southern border, first identify the significance of the problem accurately, then come up with a solution that will best deal with it. It isn't a physical wall, so say all the experts who study this in a non-partisan, policy first way.

It's funny to me how you view Schumer and Pelosi as these political beings who just don't want to give Trump a win, but you absolve Trump of the exact same thing. He needs a win and the wall was his big campaign promise. That's all well and good in the context of DC machinations, but to shut down the government over it, is the worst thing to do. IF he was so worried about drugs, MS13 and terrorists coming across the southern border, he wouldn't have knee capped the government who works to keep this stuff in check. We are at greater risk with Trump's stubbornness, not to mention what it actually does to American lives, credit and emotional well-being.

In fact, because of the shutdown, as I was driving up from San Diego, the normal place where you would stop to be checked out, is not manned at all. So how many people are finding their way further into the US? It's way more than zero that's for sure....

Simple answers to complex problems never work. This wall idea is as simple as it gets and it won't do squat to fix the real problem. Wake up and get beyond the easy hatred of Pelosi and Schumer, because that is exactly what the Repubs want you to feel to control you and get your vote so they can stay in power. And the Dems do the exact same thing....This country better find the middle fast before we disintegrate from the inside and it won't have darn thing to do with immigrants, terrorists or MS13.

I stopped reading after you called OUR President an "asshat", you7 clearly only listen to the liberal media. Tell me, what is it that you do for a living? Again, and this is the last time I will comment on this, the Border Patrol agents, the men and women on the front line dealing with this problem all say we need not only a wall but other means of protection as well.

Schumer and Pelosi both voted for a wall in the past, read that again, and again and again if need be, their hatred for Trump is the only thing stopping them.

In the very first week of the shutdown Trump asked Pelosi, "If I open the government now, will you consider a wall in two weeks" she said no. WHY would he want to open the government back up? He would lose all or any leverage he has.

Please tell us what Trump does to our credit, lives and emotional being lmao, My stocks are soaring and my credit is pretty dam good, and as for my "emotional well being", I honestly laugh and get tears in my eyes when I listen to these liberal panty wastes tell me they are hurt by a MAGA hat, or the MAGA hat is the new KKK hood lmao. You believe what CNN tells you, again I will listen to the pros, and this Government worker says BUILD THE WALL.

 

[RRzxter]

There's nothing more racist, controlling, supressing and condescending than welfare programs.

 

[halftondra]

I stopped reading after you called OUR President an "asshat", you7 clearly only listen to the liberal media. Tell me, what is it that you do for a living? Again, and this is the last time I will comment on this, the Border Patrol agents, the men and women on the front line dealing with this problem all say we need not only a wall but other means of protection as well.

Schumer and Pelosi both voted for a wall in the past, read that again, and again and again if need be, their hatred for Trump is the only thing stopping them.

In the very first week of the shutdown Trump asked Pelosi, "If I open the government now, will you consider a wall in two weeks" she said no. WHY would he want to open the government back up? He would lose all or any leverage he has.

Please tell us what Trump does to our credit, lives and emotional being lmao, My stocks are soaring and my credit is pretty dam good, and as for my "emotional well being", I honestly laugh and get tears in my eyes when I listen to these liberal panty wastes tell me they are hurt by a MAGA hat, or the MAGA hat is the new KKK hood lmao. You believe what CNN tells you, again I will listen to the pros, and this Government worker says BUILD THE WALL.

Ahh....you are a sycophant....Trump is a joke who conned the American people. He was a joke when he teamed up with Don King. He was a joke in NY real estate. He is a draft dodging wimp who talks tough and is full of bluster. He used his charity as a piggy bank to pay off his debts. He thinks he's special because he has money that his dad gave him. The only people who like him are the ones who are impressed with BS and can't admit they were duped.

Pelosi and Schumer are career politicians which is horrible and shouldn't be part of the way our gov't operates. It wasn't what was originally intended. I am not a fan of either one of them and would have liked to see different leadership come in.

Pelosi isn't negotiating with Trump on the wall BECAUSE he shut down the gov't over it. That is the definition of "negotiating with terrorists". No doubt she also see political advantage in not giving Trump an out. Why should she help him clean up the mess he created? Where is the personal accountablity in all of this for Trump? Funny how you aren't furious at him for deciding to shut down the gov't over the wall, but then you are upset with Pelosi for not negotiating. Do you not see the disconnect there?

Trump is not a good negotiator. The only way he's ever accomplished anything is through coercion and threats. The Art of the Deal is a fraud. His whole existence is a fraud. He painted himself into a corner with shutting down the gov't and is now looking for anything to save face and get himself out. Well, he shat the bed, so now he gets to lay in it. You can bet your bottom dollar that if he perceived any political advantage to keeping gov't shut down, he'd be the last one to open it up. He was the one who shut it down to begin with remember. He said it in actual words..."If we don't get what we want...I will shut down the gov't." That was December when the Repubs had all the power. And he's said it many times...how he'd be proud to shut down the gov't, how he'd own shutting down the gov't...Trump is braggard who thinks he can bulldoze to get what we wants. He's out of his league and he's getting his butt handed to him right now.

Again, if the wall was so popular with the Repubs, Mitch and Paul could have brought it to a vote and passed it...but it isn't and they know it, so it is just this campaign promise that Trump wants to deliver on. But Mexico was paying for it, no? Nevermind...

Are your stocks doing great? And is that the sign that the country is doing well? The stock market? I think we are at where they were 16 months ago and if you want to thank anyone for where your stocks are at, thank Obama (which I'm sure would kill you) for bailing out GM and supporting the financial system with huge infusions of public money when we were on the precipice of total collapse....

When people miss payments because they are furloughed and living paycheck to paycheck, as many Americans do because it is hard to make ends meet, then it affects their credit score. If they aren't working and don't know when they will return, it is destabilizing and emotionally taxing. If you aren't in that situation consider yourself lucky. Maybe you make a ton of money. Maybe your parents are able to help you out. Maybe you have friends who float you cash. That's great, but it isn't how things should be, especially when it is artificially created.

Read or don't read. I don't care how ignorant you want to keep yourself and rely on policy made by whomever you want, because you will anyhow...

I read your entire post, by the way...And I don't hate you or even dislike you. I have many friends who feel as you do and I know they are the product of disinformation and react emotionally on issues....

 

[halftondra]

Welfare programs that support "gaming the system" and cycles of poverty do a disservice to the populations they seek to serve. For others who just need a hand to get through hard times, they have value. Our welfare system needs to be adjusted to reflect realities and shouldn't be a way of life. But what is the fix? And how does this fit into the shutdown discussion?

 

[halftondra]

What's Amazing to me is how simple and obvious it all is. Yet, so many people buy into it and even parrot all the horseshit coming from the anti-Trump campaign. And passionately at that. Not many things more ridiculous than seeing an angry mob, screaming and kicking over something that isn't even true or real.
As if they were just born in the last 2 yrs.
It's not surprising, just frustrating and disappointing. This has been going on for a long time and they will continue these tactics because honestly, they work.
It's a testimate to how excitable people are, how impressionable people are, how easily manipulated they are and how short their memory and attention spans are.
The people actively opposing Trump caused this shutdown and they are actively fighting to keep it going. They don't care who suffers.
They want Trump out. They want the country back so they can sell our uranium to Russia, sell all our manufacturing to China, keep all the black people on welfare and in housing projects, keep the mexicans picking our fruit for pennies and keep our prisons full.

Wow...so much of this is so wrong, I don't even know where to begin. When lifetime Republican and true American hero who was held in the highest esteem among Republicans comes out with his report, you'll see what really is. But you won't accept it because you have been brainwashed by the far right who doesn't have anyone else to support but Trump, even if he is anathema to much of their views. Mueller will show everyone what Trump is really about and he is no liberal or fan of the Dems. Why have so many Repubs walked away from Trump. He's not one of them and they see him for the fraud he is.

Yes, most people don't want Trump to be President and don't think he should have been elected. He has done nothing in his life and never shown any good judgement that he should be president. And he won't be elected and probably won't even run. And that is if he isn't indicted/impeached for his crimes against the country. Working on behalf of Russian interests is not cool, but somehow you give him a pass?

You are a victim of the right wing media just as much as you think liberals are of the left wing media, which is actually the center at this point, but who is counting. Ailes started Fox news with the explicit intent of being a right wing disinformation platform (his own words), not fair, not balanced not truthful, but in service to his ideology....wake up sheeple...

They have to oppose everything Trump says/does. Even if it's a policy that already existed or something everyone agreed with just before he took office. They have to make him fail and make the country sorry for wanting him to be President.
They want the whole thing to look like a big mistake and failure and then they can tell everyone that only a carreer politician that "they" pick can do the job and it will be back to business as usual.

 

[RRzxter]

Listen kid, I appreciate your passion and enthusiasm. I do. And I appreciate a healthy debate. But this isn't a debate. It's nonsense.
I'm not brainwashable, nor am I influenced by any media or political ideology.
When you age and mature, you will see the world in different terms and,these conversations will go differently for you.
This isn't about individuals or personalities. It's not about Trump or Pelosi.

 

[flighht2k5]

They are not exactly the same...Educate yourself...you have all the power in the world to do so....I don't care what your sense of reality is...that's your world to figure out and I don't really care about winning a debate on a forum...I'm just here to represent another, differently informed view of things and people will do with it what they will. I am under no illusion that anyone will change their minds because it is too big of an ego blow for most to say, "I was wrong about this"....such is the attachment to self-worth people have of their opinions....

You educate yourself. You also have the power to do so.

 

[ACDan]

I wonder what the Bilderberg Group thinks about all this.

 

[halftondra]

I stopped reading after you called OUR President an "asshat", you7 clearly only listen to the liberal media. Tell me, what is it that you do for a living? Again, and this is the last time I will comment on this, the Border Patrol agents, the men and women on the front line dealing with this problem all say we need not only a wall but other means of protection as well.

Schumer and Pelosi both voted for a wall in the past, read that again, and again and again if need be, their hatred for Trump is the only thing stopping them.

In the very first week of the shutdown Trump asked Pelosi, "If I open the government now, will you consider a wall in two weeks" she said no. WHY would he want to open the government back up? He would lose all or any leverage he has.

Please tell us what Trump does to our credit, lives and emotional being lmao, My stocks are soaring and my credit is pretty dam good, and as for my "emotional well being", I honestly laugh and get tears in my eyes when I listen to these liberal panty wastes tell me they are hurt by a MAGA hat, or the MAGA hat is the new KKK hood lmao. You believe what CNN tells you, again I will listen to the pros, and this Government worker says BUILD THE WALL.

Ahh....you are a sycophant....Trump is a joke who conned the American people. He was a joke when he teamed up with Don King. He was a joke in NY real estate. He is a draft dodging wimp who talks tough and is full of bluster. He used his charity as a piggy bank to pay off his debts. He thinks he's special because he has money that his dad gave him. The only people who like him are the ones who are impressed with BS and can't admit they were duped.

Pelosi and Schumer are career politicians which is horrible and shouldn't be part of the way our gov't operates. It wasn't what was originally intended. I am not a fan of either one of them and would have liked to see different leadership come in.

Pelosi isn't negotiating with Trump on the wall BECAUSE he shut down the gov't over it. That is the definition of "negotiating with terrorists". No doubt she also see political advantage in not giving Trump an out. Why should she help him clean up the mess he created? Where is the personal accountablity in all of this for Trump? Funny how you aren't furious at him for deciding to shut down the gov't over the wall, but then you are upset with Pelosi for not negotiating. Do you not see the disconnect there?

Trump is not a good negotiator. The only way he's ever accomplished anything is through coercion and threats. The Art of the Deal is a fraud. His whole existence is a fraud. He painted himself into a corner with shutting down the gov't and is now looking for anything to save face and get himself out. Well, he shat the bed, so now he gets to lay in it. You can bet your bottom dollar that if he perceived any political advantage to keeping gov't shut down, he'd be the last one to open it up. He was the one who shut it down to begin with remember. He said it in actual words..."If we don't get what we want...I will shut down the gov't." That was December when the Repubs had all the power. And he's said it many times...how he'd be proud to shut down the gov't, how he'd own shutting down the gov't...Trump is braggard who thinks he can bulldoze to get what we wants. He's out of his league and he's getting his butt handed to him right now.

Again, if the wall was so popular with the Repubs, Mitch and Paul could have brought it to a vote and passed it...but it isn't and they know it, so it is just this campaign promise that Trump wants to deliver on. But Mexico was paying for it, no? Nevermind...

Are your stocks doing great? And is that the sign that the country is doing well? The stock market? I think we are at where they were 16 months ago and if you want to thank anyone for where your stocks are at, thank Obama (which I'm sure would kill you) for bailing out GM and supporting the financial system with huge infusions of public money when we were on the precipice of total collapse....

When people miss payments because they are furloughed and living paycheck to paycheck, as many Americans do because it is hard to make ends meet, then it affects their credit score. If they aren't working and don't know when they will return, it is destabilizing and emotionally taxing. If you aren't in that situation consider yourself lucky. Maybe you make a ton of money. Maybe your parents are able to help you out. Maybe you have friends who float you cash. That's great, but it isn't how things should be, especially when it is artificially created.

Read or don't read. I don't care how ignorant you want to keep yourself and rely on policy made by whomever you want, because you will anyhow...

I read your entire post, by the way...