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Discussion Starter #1
In order to keep from cluttering sctunas thread I figured I would start a mid travel thread.

I dont feel like there is enough brainstorming about mid travel performance. The cost of full LT is pretty high. A basic MT setup is only a couple grand...

but what if you want a high performance MT setup? I think its possible. We have plenty of wheel travel.

Second shock hoop with a bypass looks very interesting to me. I wonder how this would compare to a single rate LT setup? Im still not sold on having to run wheel spacers, altho n2deep is trying to talk me into it

I have also thought about getting aggressive with my current 2.5s instead of a second shock hoop. Maybe a higher rate spring and higher compression? Im worried about street manners tho...

Keith? If someone offered a King package that had 700 or 800 lbs springs with specific valving, I would seriously consider that. Especially if you thought they would work well with weight. Im wondering about 800 lbs springs on a re-valved 2.5 King for when I get my four wheel camper. Or for someone running a heavy winch bumper.

I am also sure there is lots to talk about when it comes to a matching rear. Thats another reason for staying MT. If you want to keep your full bed, you have to run cantilever. I have seen bed cages that keep most of your bedspace, but none that would work with a camper. So I kept it MT by upgrading my leaf packs and installing shackles. I still haven't flexed it for measurements yet, but I think I added an inch or two of wheel travel. I really think its possible to go with shackles and a higher arch and achieve 12" of real travel out of the rear without getting fancy. Might have to relocate the upper shock mounts, but cost is low, $600 was the quote from a local fab shop. There is a little room there to go up. I am also not opposed to cutting the bed and having a little bit of the shock poke up.

thoughts???
 

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I will let you know my numbers next week. Just ordered longer shafts so my rear shocks right now are using 9.5in of travel and the longer shafts are 2" longer so that puts me at about 11.5 of travel. Maybe able to get another inch if I can change the top shock mount but that will be decided on how the shocks cycle. Plan on adding compression adjusters to the rear and the large resi can.

Just go 700lb spring in the front - don't think your gonna bottom out with that. What pressure you running in the front coils?
 

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SUB! I was reading and researching MT for Tacomas, with the intention of going with a DCSB, but if the Tundra can have a better suspension like a MT setup... I'm inclined to keep her.

In my research, would LR uca with extended c/o and bump stop be considered mid travel? It was defined to me as longer travel than stock but not enough to call it LT, maybe 8in of travel?

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I think on Tacoma LT is about 13in of travel and Tundra MT is about 12in
 

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Discussion Starter #5
SUB! I was reading and researching MT for Tacomas, with the intention of going with a DCSB, but if the Tundra can have a better suspension like a MT setup... I'm inclined to keep her.

In my research, would LR uca with extended c/o and bump stop be considered mid travel? It was defined to me as longer travel than stock but not enough to call it LT, maybe 8in of travel?
Yeah I would consider a tundra with a uniball UCA (one that corrects the geometry by adding caster) and appropriate coilovers as a mid travel setup. Should be good for 11" - 13" of travel up front depending on the coilover. From what I can gather, the fox 2.5 might be closer to 11" travel while KORE claims 12.4"

I would love to know what King claims. Based on what I saw when I ground out my passenger side LCA, there is room for a longer coil as long as the compressed length is right. I think KORE figured this out and tweaked the Fox design, but I wonder if King did this?

I will let you know my numbers next week. Just ordered longer shafts so my rear shocks right now are using 9.5in of travel and the longer shafts are 2" longer so that puts me at about 11.5 of travel. Maybe able to get another inch if I can change the top shock mount but that will be decided on how the shocks cycle. Plan on adding compression adjusters to the rear and the large resi can.

Just go 700lb spring in the front - don't think your gonna bottom out with that. What pressure you running in the front coils?
I never thought going with a longer shaft, you might be on to something with that. I really need to flex my rear and take some measurements, but I just havent figured out how to do it short of taking it to a shop.

Part of my problem is that I dont know if I should throw money at my foxs or just switch to the Kings. They seem to be more versatile.

I havent checked the pressure in my front shocks yet. I have been waiting to figure out if Im gonna re-valve them. I also need to figure out what pound spring they come with. If I got 600 lbs then going to 700 will probably work. Guess I should get off my azz and email fox...
 

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I checked out the Core coil overs, 1250 per? Or for the pair? Which UCA would you go for, from the description it sounds like I can run stock uca.


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Chock your front wheels - and jack it up from the trailer hitch. When the wheels are just off the ground measure from the bump to the frame. Then unbolt the shocks and jack it up till the wheels are just off the ground. Measure from the bump to the frame again.
That should give you your travel in the rear.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
I checked out the Core coil overs, 1250 per? Or for the pair? Which UCA would you go for, from the description it sounds like I can run stock uca.
I hope its $1250 for the pair! :eek:
You can run the stock UCA, but a uniball will allow more droop so you can take advantage of the longer coilover. plus they should also correct caster.

I think camburg, total chaos, icon are proven brands of UCAs.

Chock your front wheels - and jack it up from the trailer hitch. When the wheels are just off the ground measure from the bump to the frame. Then unbolt the shocks and jack it up till the wheels are just off the ground. Measure from the bump to the frame again.
That should give you your travel in the rear.
I thought about this, but how would I get the compression measurement? Droop is easy, but a real compression measurement is what I cant figure out. I have my stock leafs and I was think about stripping them down to the main leaf, but the new leaf pack I put in is thicker so it wouldnt really be accurate.

I also thought about just trying to jack up one rear wheel to see if I could get it to touch the bump. But I dont think my jack is tall enough
 

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Sweet jesus, I wish I knew more about suspension so I could follow what the F you guys are talking about. I think I understand just enough to make me even more confused...
 

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Discussion Starter #10
From fox regarding my front shocks, part number 880-02-947:

"The spring that comes on this shock is 17” long 3.0ID 700lb rate"

So I think I will try to revalve first. After I get the camper I will probably have to go to 800lbs springs. But before I do all that, I want to look at King and see if they have similar travel numbers to the KORES.

KORE says they remove an internal spacer and thats how they get the extra travel. I wonder if I could mod my foxs on my own???
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Sweet jesus, I wish I knew more about suspension so I could follow what the F you guys are talking about. I think I understand just enough to make me even more confused...
Ask away homie! Im still new to this too. 6 months ago I was driving an STi and learning about turbos. Now Im back in a truck and learning how to build my first suspension. I honestly dont know if Im even using all these terms correctly lol
 

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You don't need to compress it to the bump - just measure to the bump because that is as far as the axle will travel before the bump prevents it from anymore up travel. The bump might compress a little since its rubber but your numbers will be close. Its a solid axle and not the same as the front.
The front you can't measure from the bump cause its an arc and the wheel travel will be more than the bump travel. Thats why Longer Arms in the LT give more wheel travel.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
I think I understand now! So I measure from the upper shock mount to the lower when the wheels are fully drooped. That is my EXTENDED measurement.

Then when the truck is not jacked, I measure from the frame to the bump. I'll call that the SAG.

So when the truck is sitting, not jacked up, I can measure from the upper mount to the lower mount, and then SUBTRACT the SAG measurement. And that should give me the compressed length. zat right?
 

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Its not really about shock travel because your shock is designed as an 8" travel shock or 10" in or whatever. Just because you have a 12" travel shock doesn't mean that your axle will travel 12". You might be hitting the bump or something else limiting the travel.(brake lines-bad, or the shock might not be positioned correct and you run out of shock on the droop and waste it on the up) Just because you may have 16" of total travel doesn't mean you can throw a 16" travel shock and it work.
Its about how much your axle will travel. You will have 2 numbers -1 being the amount of travel with the shocks connected and 2 the amount it travels with them disconnected.
Then when sitting on its own weight you can determine what amount of up travel you have and if your using it all and how much droop you have and if your using it all.
In my case I have 17.5 of total axle travel, but only using 9.5 of that. I am hitting my bumps so i really don't have anymore up travel. But I am trying to figure out how to get some of that droop travel and make it usable. By adding longer shafts i get 2 more inches of usable travel but have to be careful so the uptravel doesn't bottom the shock out. I just need to make sure I hit bumps before the shock bottoms out.
 

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Ask away homie! Im still new to this too. 6 months ago I was driving an STi and learning about turbos. Now Im back in a truck and learning how to build my first suspension. I honestly dont know if Im even using all these terms correctly lol
ok, you asked for it, this is probably gonna be some stupid, entry level sh!t, but here goes...

Second shock hoop with a bypass looks very interesting to me. I wonder how this would compare to a single rate LT setup? Im still not sold on having to run wheel spacers
What does a second shock hoop do for you and what is a bypass? What are the purpose of wheel spacers and why would you need them?

I have also thought about getting aggressive with my current 2.5s instead of a second shock hoop. Maybe a higher rate spring and higher compression?
What does 2.5s refer to and why would you want higher rated springs? Wouldn't a stiffer spring limit movement?

Im wondering about 800 lbs springs on a re-valved 2.5 King for when I get my four wheel camper.
What does re-valving do?

I know this is a lot and like I said, I'm sure most of it is very basic... Thanks for the help
 

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ok, you asked for it, this is probably gonna be some stupid, entry level sh!t, but here goes...


What does a second shock hoop do for you and what is a bypass? What are the purpose of wheel spacers and why would you need them?

The second shock hoop will allow you to use another shock in conjuction with the coilover.

What does 2.5s refer to and why would you want higher rated springs? Wouldn't a stiffer spring limit movement?

2.5s refers to the coilover body. They can be 2.0, 2.5, and 3.0
A higher spring rate will provide a firmer ride, but adding stiffer springs will need to matched with shocks. This is why shocks are re-valved.


What does re-valving do?

Allows the shock to matched with the spring rate for optimized performance.


I know this is a lot and like I said, I'm sure most of it is very basic... Thanks for the help
Hope that helps.
 

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OSP,
You've probably already thought of or tried this, but perhaps working with one of the suspension companies that aren't really *that* far from you (e.g., Camburg, Radflo, Icon, TC) would be your best bet. Maybe, one of them would be most willing to work with you to customize your rig?

Personally, if I were to need such fine tuning, I'd give Radflo a shot (no affiliation, etc.). They seem to be willing work with people till they are happy. I spoke to [email protected] once. Despite my lack of knowledge, he took time to *try* to educate me a bit. I would've went with them. But, through no fault of theirs, all kinds of things came up and I went another direction. However, if I were to to it again with something not "off the shelf", I'm gonna give Radflo my business.


In order to keep from cluttering sctunas thread I figured I would start a mid travel thread.

I dont feel like there is enough brainstorming about mid travel performance. The cost of full LT is pretty high. A basic MT setup is only a couple grand...

but what if you want a high performance MT setup? I think its possible. We have plenty of wheel travel.

Second shock hoop with a bypass looks very interesting to me. I wonder how this would compare to a single rate LT setup? Im still not sold on having to run wheel spacers, altho n2deep is trying to talk me into it

I have also thought about getting aggressive with my current 2.5s instead of a second shock hoop. Maybe a higher rate spring and higher compression? Im worried about street manners tho...

Keith? If someone offered a King package that had 700 or 800 lbs springs with specific valving, I would seriously consider that. Especially if you thought they would work well with weight. Im wondering about 800 lbs springs on a re-valved 2.5 King for when I get my four wheel camper. Or for someone running a heavy winch bumper.

I am also sure there is lots to talk about when it comes to a matching rear. Thats another reason for staying MT. If you want to keep your full bed, you have to run cantilever. I have seen bed cages that keep most of your bedspace, but none that would work with a camper. So I kept it MT by upgrading my leaf packs and installing shackles. I still haven't flexed it for measurements yet, but I think I added an inch or two of wheel travel. I really think its possible to go with shackles and a higher arch and achieve 12" of real travel out of the rear without getting fancy. Might have to relocate the upper shock mounts, but cost is low, $600 was the quote from a local fab shop. There is a little room there to go up. I am also not opposed to cutting the bed and having a little bit of the shock poke up.

thoughts???
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Its not really about shock travel because your shock is designed as an 8" travel shock or 10" in or whatever. Just because you have a 12" travel shock doesn't mean that your axle will travel 12". You might be hitting the bump or something else limiting the travel.(brake lines-bad, or the shock might not be positioned correct and you run out of shock on the droop and waste it on the up) Just because you may have 16" of total travel doesn't mean you can throw a 16" travel shock and it work.
Its about how much your axle will travel. You will have 2 numbers -1 being the amount of travel with the shocks connected and 2 the amount it travels with them disconnected.
Then when sitting on its own weight you can determine what amount of up travel you have and if your using it all and how much droop you have and if your using it all.
In my case I have 17.5 of total axle travel, but only using 9.5 of that. I am hitting my bumps so i really don't have anymore up travel. But I am trying to figure out how to get some of that droop travel and make it usable. By adding longer shafts i get 2 more inches of usable travel but have to be careful so the uptravel doesn't bottom the shock out. I just need to make sure I hit bumps before the shock bottoms out.
No my problem is that my current shock limits travel on the down stroke. I can hit the bumps on the up, but my shock limits the down. I probably have another 2"-4" of down travel I can recover if I get a longer shock, but I do not know if I should go with a 10" or a 12". If I do 12" I will probably have to relocate the upper mounts. Im going to extend all my lines so those arent the limiting factor. Right now I want to measure so I know exactly how much travel I have with the shock disconnected; and then get a longer shock so I can take advantage of it. I mostly want it for additional articulation, not necessarily for high speed runs.

For you, if you have 17.5" of total axle travel, then you should seriously look at re-angling your shocks. You could probably make a 16" shock work without bottoming it out. You wont get a full 16" travel because of the extra shock angles, but you would definitely get more than 9.5"

What size shock are you currently trying to fit?

What does a second shock hoop do for you and what is a bypass? What are the purpose of wheel spacers and why would you need them?
Bypass is a shock that has certain zones in the stroke where you can bypass fluid. So you can have a soft ride in the middle of the stroke, but slam it hard and you can have high damping at the end of the stroke.

Second shock hoop allows you to add a second shock, either single rate or bypass.

Wheel spacers are needed if you run a second shock hoop with the stock LCAs. The wheels need to be pushed out in order to clear the new shock. Total Chaos long travel kit does not require spacers, but the extended arms will increase your track by 5"


Wouldn't a stiffer spring limit movement?
Yes and no. If you carry weight like I do, then you need a higher spring rate just to hold the truck up. But running a higher spring rate can also help with the big bumps. You need to maintain a balance between appropriate spring rate and shock dampening.


What does re-valving do?
You can change the valving in certain shocks to increase or decrease damping during compression or rebound. For me, I would like to increase compression damping because I bottom out sometimes on the big stuff.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
OSP,
You've probably already thought of or tried this, but perhaps working with one of the suspension companies that aren't really *that* far from you (e.g., Camburg, Radflo, Icon, TC) would be your best bet. Maybe, one of them would be most willing to work with you to customize your rig?

Personally, if I were to need such fine tuning, I'd give Radflo a shot (no affiliation, etc.). They seem to be willing work with people till they are happy. I spoke to [email protected] once. Despite my lack of knowledge, he took time to *try* to educate me a bit. I would've went with them. But, through no fault of theirs, all kinds of things came up and I went another direction. However, if I were to to it again with something not "off the shelf", I'm gonna give Radflo my business.
Thanks man I appreciate the ideas, Ill keep radflo in mind :)

But I really want to do this on my own. I plan on doing my first shock service on my own and I might try to change the valving at that time. Most of the work I can do on my own; change shocks, springs, etc. I will have to learn how to rebuild a shock, but Im not intimidated.

My shortcomings fall in the area of shock theory. I am trying to learn proper suspension geometry so I can get the right shock length for my application. I am also trying to learn about damping and the different effects it can have. I still have not dug into how to setup the shim stacks to get the desired valving, but I plan to learn that too.

Most of this stuff seems difficult to me at first, but becomes easy after the first time I do it ;)
 

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A little teaser :) Gives me a little more droop - Then need to figure out the bump setup. Will get pics when finished this weekend. And then test them on Mojave Rd. Saturday night. :D

14.5 inch shaft on the stock rear shock

17.5 inch long on the new shaft.
 
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