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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Really, I haven't really seen this discussed in depth here yet.

Most decent priced components that non pure sq audiophiles call for about 60-80 watts rms, example Pioneer D-series...

They are a great sounding speaker, especially for the price.

However, at 60 wrms they don't hold enough on paper to work with most 5 channel amps. (Ex: JL 900/5hd @ 100/4, or Alpine pdx V-9) Both amps are a great amp, and can be a great value when you consider that you get a small footprint amp that offers ease of installation and a sub channel cranking out 500 watts rms @ variable ohm load...

Many say that with the great dampening control of these amps (especially when ran at 4 ohms) that you can safely send the extra 40 wrms to the speakers and if gain is set properly you will not have an issue, however there is also that side that says if you crank it you will burn the voice coils out...

I currently have D series, got em for my b-day ( I was going to buy them anyways, just keep buying guns and ammo)

I have looked at other components in my price and desired quality range and they are all about the same specs as far and rated rms handling.

I am curious to see what you all think...

I can get a GOOOOD deal on either amp, I know that they are pricey normally, but at less than $500 for the pine nib from an authorized dealer and about $700 for the Jl also authorized, they are both easier than buying a 4 channel and a mono amp... The Jl also takes high level inputs, not sure about the pine... That means when utilizing factory head unit one could do the install without a loc or a processor while they save some $$ to upgrade later...


It is this or do a throwback install and use my vintage rf 4.6x ( one of the last series hand built in U.S.A.) which is appx 35-45 rms x4 ( which would be wayy safe, but not offer full output capability of the speakers), but then still need to buy a mono sub amp, and then do a dist block...
 

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There is more to it than just the power rating. Frequency will also play a part. If you use the high pass crossover on the amp, the speaker will almost certainly "handle" more power since it is not receiving lower frequencies that require lots of power.

But unless you are listening to test tones, or play your music extremely loud, you will almost never approach the maximum output of your amp. So I say go with one of the somewhat higher power rated amp, spend some time adjusting the settings, and you should be fine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Damn...

That's it?


There are threads where people are half bashing other people for wanting to buy wayy high$$ audio controllers/processors, and only one reply lol.

I am likely going with the jl900/5, but primarily because it is capable of accepting line level inputs, the alpine isn't... By the time I buy the pine and get a processor, I could have had the 900/5 which is a better amp imo...

Here is another question.

Supposedly we have "wet" doors, will speaker baffles help against water damage?

I am only asking because a buddy of mine had rf components and the moisture in his doors supposedly killed them... They lasted 2 months (spring here), he replaced them with c5's (the dumbass I guess is going to leave them in there when he trades in in too, idiot.) the c5's have held up, he said his installer did something different with them so they didn't die... I am assuming this is what he did?
 

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Underpowering is way worse than overpowering a speaker. Distortion is the thing to avoid. As mentioned above try to set the crossovers within the frequency range the speakers are designed for. So if they say 35Hz is the lowest frequency they can play, then set the crossover at 35Hz or above (I always try to stay a little above the lowest rating) so they wont try to play low frequencies that they aren't designed for.
 

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Never a bad thing to have more power on hand than "needed." I ran a v9 for a while. 2ch went to tweeters and 2 ch went to mids. Never and issue at all. I'm currently running a pair of 4ch amps rated at 125x4 rms. 2ch to tweeters, 2ch to midrange, 2ch to midbass, and 2ch bridged to a sub. The midrange I'm using are Tang Band 3" rated at 30 watt rms handling. Not concerned. If the gains are set appropriately everything will be fine.


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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I have overpowered subs, but in honesty, I haven't done much with components, or anything at all in about 8-9 years lol.

Thanks, at least I don't feel like I am going to smoke what I have now. Oddly enough one of the guys at a local shop was pushing focals because they could handle the power of the amp that he was suggesting...
 

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Don't get me wrong you can still smoke stuff it they start getting hot. Tweeters are the worst for it. Just set you gains accordingly and fine tune the crossovers and you'll be ok. Besides with that wattage... If you play it at that volume level for any long period of time... You'll be deaf in no time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Well, here's a question...

Last time I ran components was over 10 years ago, those were high end rf's ( actually good rf's)

The new components have a -xx db option, which I am assuming if the tweeter sounds too bright it just cuts xx db from it, right?

To tell the age of the last system with components, Rockford sold head units then... Cuz I had one lol.
This will make a lil laugh at least.

I am actually going deaf, mainly from work, this is one of the reasons to start with components/mids and not just throw subs in the back and call it good. I can't hear music like I used to, and the Tundra at highway speeds with the tires pictured is loud inside, it has gotten little air leaks over the 2.5 years (as expected) and I wanted to re-do everything anyways but figured I might as well do it all.


I do know that distortion is what kills, hence actually having subs live through 4 vehicles and about 6-7 years while being young and stupid and ALWAYS having it loud, like annoy people loud , I did always have everything adjusted properly...

Just never really dealt with higher rms than spec on components... Back then speakers claimed outrageously high handling and amps sucked if you were on a budget.
 

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The wattage ratings on those boxes mean very little once the bench test is over. An amp can be rated for 100 watts rms but that doesn't mean you will regularly see that. In fact you might never get that full 100 watts or only see it very rarely. It all depends on what volume the music is recorded at, what volume it is played at, boost levels, and where all the drivers are crossed over at.

There are times when you may only be getting a few watts out of that amp. There may be times when you are only getting half its rating. MAYBE in the rare instances when you crank the volume and have a loud recording you might approach the full wattage rating. Even then, music rises and sinks in frequency and volume level so it is pretty difficult to max things out for long enough to start burning stuff out. Test tones elicit a certain wattage continuously, but with normal music it is constantly changing.


People blow speakers by not running clean power to them or by maxing out their systems for extended periods of time and not giving the speakers time to cool down. This is more of a danger with systems running ALOT of power, like a few thousand watts or more. But plenty of people have been known to feed speakers 2 or 3 times their power rating with the gain dialed all the way back without ever running into a problem. So throwing 100 watts to a 60 watt speaker is NOTHING. I used to throw about 120 watts to my 60 watt components for a few years with ZERO problems and it sounded great.

When done properly running surplus clean power to your drivers gives you the capability to get louder, cleaner music without straining anything. As crazy as this sounds, this could actually be better for the longevity of everything than matching ratings down to the watt but then having to boost various things to get the loudness you want.
 
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Damn...

That's it?


There are threads where people are half bashing other people for wanting to buy wayy high$$ audio controllers/processors, and only one reply lol.

I am likely going with the jl900/5, but primarily because it is capable of accepting line level inputs, the alpine isn't... By the time I buy the pine and get a processor, I could have had the 900/5 which is a better amp imo...

Here is another question.

Supposedly we have "wet" doors, will speaker baffles help against water damage?

I am only asking because a buddy of mine had rf components and the moisture in his doors supposedly killed them... They lasted 2 months (spring here), he replaced them with c5's (the dumbass I guess is going to leave them in there when he trades in in too, idiot.) the c5's have held up, he said his installer did something different with them so they didn't die... I am assuming this is what he did?

You will be happy with the JL 900/5. I'm running a full alpine component set up front coaxials in the rear and a JL stelthbox in the back. That amp has more than enough power for all those items. Once you get everything installed have someone qualified tune your system for you properly. That way your not having to try and figure it all out. That way you can just crank up the volume and enjoy your new speakers!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
You will be happy with the JL 900/5. I'm running a full alpine component set up front coaxials in the rear and a JL stelthbox in the back. That amp has more than enough power for all those items. Once you get everything installed have someone qualified tune your system for you properly. That way your not having to try and figure it all out. That way you can just crank up the volume and enjoy your new speakers!
Ehh, I am not too keen on any audio shops messing with anything...

I have had them cause more harm than good historically speaking.

When I had blown a w6v2 (actually the amp's inability to control the sub caused it to go to hell, T10001bd @ 1 ohm doesn't have very good damping control as I found out) the shop I bought the subs from thought the set was ran at 4 ohms and didn't understand how or why I had the v/c's wired the way I did, tried to say it was due to under powering... They said they would cover the sub anyways for a small fee to do an immediate swap... I have talked to the manager there since then and they (jl) bounced the claim, damaged voice coil, also damaged surround to to over excursion... I knew what happened right when it happened and why. The manager now knows too, they are no longer a jl dealer. The place I do trust overcharges, but they are there for knowledge and help... They laughed and told me at the time when I had killed the sub that had I taken it to them it wouldn't have been warrantied before jl's saying so due to circumstances.

Sorry, that was a ramble. But it was funny at the time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
As it turns out, I may end up with the 900/5hd, and jl c5's for the front and back, and a full cleansweep set-up...

A guy I know that always asks me to do work on the side just asked me if we could work something out for everything in his truck to do a full swap of plow wiring and undercarriage to his new truck... Hmm. Everything is 2 years old... I don't really need the cleensweep, really just wanted the amp, had planned on seeing what he wanted for it when he gets it removed. Everything was professionally installed, and same shop will be removing it. Too bad I already bought D series for the front and rear lol.
 

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The JL Audio 900/5 is a great amp. Make sure you set up the gains properly when installed as the amp comes with very specific instructions for setting up the gains (some of the best instructions I've seen).

The idea of overpowering/ under-powering isn't as straight forward as most put out there. The big key here is that speakers are a reactive load, not just a simple resistor with an impedance that remains the same when playing music. The most important thing is to make sure the amp is working within the conditions it's designed to work with-in and everything is adjusted so that the signal remains relatively unclipped. People often say that under-powering a speaker is an issue but really what ends up happening is people screw up adjusting their gains. If it was possible to just merely damage your speakers by under-powering them than listening to your stereo at anything other than full blast would be damaging to them. When this idea is fully examined it's more about improperly setting up gains or driving the source unit into clipping that really results in the damage of the speakers.


If you buy an amplifier that has more power than what you need (I'm a big proponent of this) than you gain what is referred to as "head room". The basic idea here is that you don't have to adjust the gains to their maximum to get the power you are looking for. In your case, if you are driving your door speakers with the 4 channels of the JL amp that is rated at 100 watts x 4 at 4 ohms you only get that when the gains are perfectly set up and matched to the source and things are turned up to the maximum unclipped signal. If you had some speakers that only could handle 60 watts rms, than you'd just roll back the gains and never let the amp reach its maximum. This creates what so many refer to as having "head room". The idea here is also fairly simple; if the amp can produce 100 watts x 4 at 4 ohms with say .008% THD, than if you only ask it to produce 60 watts x 4 at 4 ohms, it can do this much cleaner because it doesn't have to work as hard. (This is assuming that the distortion isn't coming from any crosstalk within the amp.) I guess you could compare this to towing a trailer. You can tow a 4,500 lb trailer with a Tacoma all day long and it'll get it done and not really have an issue. Now take that same trailer and throw it behind a F-250 power stroke. That truck can tow the same trailer all day long as well, and never have an issue either. The big difference is how easy the F-250 does it compared to the Tacoma. The F-250 is like having an amp that is larger than what you need, and the Tacoma is like having an amplifier that is just what you need.

I do have a 900/5 and personally, I'd suggest using some kind of processor (be it JBL, JL, Audison, Rockford Fosgate...) to take the speaker level and clean it up rather than go straight into it. The amp handles high level fine... no issue really with the amp, but the factory head unit doesn't really have a very good signal.
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 · (Edited)
The JL Audio 900/5 is a great amp. Make sure you set up the gains properly when installed as the amp comes with very specific instructions for setting up the gains (some of the best instructions I've seen).

The idea of overpowering/ under-powering isn't as straight forward as most put out there. The big key here is that speakers are a reactive load, not just a simple resistor with an impedance that remains the same when playing music. The most important thing is to make sure the amp is working within the conditions it's designed to work with-in and everything is adjusted so that the signal remains relatively unclipped. People often say that under-powering a speaker is an issue but really what ends up happening is people screw up adjusting their gains. If it was possible to just merely damage your speakers by under-powering them than listening to your stereo at anything other than full blast would be damaging to them. When this idea is fully examined it's more about improperly setting up gains or driving the source unit into clipping that really results in the damage of the speakers.


If you buy an amplifier that has more power than what you need (I'm a big proponent of this) than you gain what is referred to as "head room". The basic idea here is that you don't have to adjust the gains to their maximum to get the power you are looking for. In your case, if you are driving your door speakers with the 4 channels of the JL amp that is rated at 100 watts x 4 at 4 ohms you only get that when the gains are perfectly set up and matched to the source and things are turned up to the maximum unclipped signal. If you had some speakers that only could handle 60 watts rms, than you'd just roll back the gains and never let the amp reach its maximum. This creates what so many refer to as having "head room". The idea here is also fairly simple; if the amp can produce 100 watts x 4 at 4 ohms with say .008% THD, than if you only ask it to produce 60 watts x 4 at 4 ohms, it can do this much cleaner because it doesn't have to work as hard. (This is assuming that the distortion isn't coming from any crosstalk within the amp.) I guess you could compare this to towing a trailer. You can tow a 4,500 lb trailer with a Tacoma all day long and it'll get it done and not really have an issue. Now take that same trailer and throw it behind a F-250 power stroke. That truck can tow the same trailer all day long as well, and never have an issue either. The big difference is how easy the F-250 does it compared to the Tacoma. The F-250 is like having an amp that is larger than what you need, and the Tacoma is like having an amplifier that is just what you need.

I do have a 900/5 and personally, I'd suggest using some kind of processor (be it JBL, JL, Audison, Rockford Fosgate...) to take the speaker level and clean it up rather than go straight into it. The amp handles high level fine... no issue really with the amp, but the factory head unit doesn't really have a very good signal.
I had planned on using an AudioControl unit originally ( likely the lcq1 or lc6i or 7i), if I get everything from this guys truck ( f350 crew, KR) It would include the cleansweep with all necessary modules. It worked great in his truck, I don't really like the cheesy volume knob, but hey, I won't bitch if I get it...

I guess I never really thought about the fact that amps really only put out rated power under optimal conditions and the rest of the time only what they need to...

I'm kinda stoked, he (guy) just happened to come in and I was already planning on buying his amp... We'll have to see how this all pans out.

I do like the RF processor, however I have been told it's a nightmare to set up and most time consuming of all of them. I don't know if it's true, it was a JL dealer that said this and then also an AudioControl dealer said the same thing too...
 

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The guy you were talking to about the cleansweep was right on, they are a bit of a hassle to set up. Honestly, they were amazing units when they came out, and they do a fantastic job, but the design is a little old and needs to be updated. The main issue I've heard of is if the cleansweep happens to lose power for whatever reason (dead or disconnected battery) you have to go back through and reprogram the thing. Audiocontrol makes great units and are very straight forward in their set up but you give up the adjustment of the cleansweep. The Three.sixty.3 by Rockford is a great unit. It's complicated, but if you put in the time you'll be rewarded. These units are a bit pricey though. I've never messed with JBL's (I think they call it the M8) unit but I hear great things about it... once its set up. I live with an Audision Bit Ten. Love the unit and have no regrets. It does take some time setting up though... lots of tweeking but that gives me time to geek out a bit. I have no idea whether its the best out there, but it serves me well.
 
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
the AudioControl lcq1 has eq built in, I don't know if it has the adjustment of the cleansweep tho. I know it is not near what an Audison bit ten is
 
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