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post #1 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 02:54 PM Thread Starter
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"Full Synthetic Oil"...Straight From Crude

I learned something about synthetic oil this morning, and my world wobbled on it's axis.

Unless the motor oil you're using is labeled "100% Synthetic", it is not a TRUE synthetic motor oil. Mobil 1 is labeled "Full Synthetic", but the only thing synthetic about Mobil 1, or any "Full Synthetic Oil", is possibly the additive package. The base used to make Mobil 1 is a Class III base stock, or a highly refined fraction from crude oil.

A true "100% synthetic" motor oil is made from a Class IV base stock, or polyalphaolefin (PAO) base. All POA based motor oils labeled as "100% Synthetic" have a higher temperature capability, or "coking temperature", than conventional oils. Coking temperature is where motor oil changes from a liquid to a solid, plus smoke and gases. A higher coking temperature is highly useful if you have a turbocharger or higher engine temperature application, like racing. A case can be made that a true PAO motor oil is not required in typical automotive applications.

From the seventies, Mobil Oil Corp was the inventor of "synthetic motor oil" and popularized Mobil 1. In those days, Mobil 1 was typically much more expensive than conventional oils because of the PAO base stock. Castrol later became Mobil's competitor in the synthetic oil market, but to cut costs, they began to market a motor oil labeled "synthetic", but made with a highly refined base from crude oil. Their argument was that the additive package was "synthetic", and therefore the oil could be labeled as "synthetic". Mobil took them to court to force them to discontinue marketing their oil as "synthetic", and LOST.

Clearly, Mobil decided if you can't beat them, to join them in selling "Full Synthetic" motor oil that isn't synthetic. That is the reason why Mobil 1 "Full Synthetic" motor oil now costs virtually the same as the top brands of conventional oil...Mobil 1 IS a conventional oil. If you're feeding your Tundra a true "100% Synthetic", PAO-based motor oil, you're paying two to three times more than what Mobil 1 and other conventional oil costs. Brands having a true, "100% Synthetic", PAO based motor oil include Redline, Royal Purple, and Amsoil, which is one reason why they are twice as expensive.

So...How did this myth about Toyota specifying extended change interval if using synthetic oil start? Does anyone have this recommendation to use "synthetic oil" in writing? My 2017 Warranty and Maintenance Guide confirms 10K mile change intervals, 5K for "special operating conditions", but the only oil specification is in the Owner's Manual: "Toyota Genuine Motor Oil (available as both conventional and a non-synthetic "Full Synthetic") or equivalent". How do we know the factory fill is even a non-synthetic "Full Synthetic", and not just a conventional motor oil? How do we know what we're actually receiving from our Toyota dealer's bulk tanks with our free "ToyotaCare" oil changes? Does it even make a difference?

I'll be sticking with the Mobil 1 since it doesn't cost much more than conventional dino oil. But, if your Tundra has always had conventional dino motor oil, there's no point now, if there ever was, in changing to a "Full Synthetic".

For more info:


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post #2 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 04:33 PM
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sounds like someone just pissed in your wheaties this morning.
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post #3 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by OldGuy43 View Post
I learned something about synthetic oil this morning, and my world wobbled on it's axis.

Unless the motor oil you're using is labeled "100% Synthetic", it is not a TRUE synthetic motor oil. Mobil 1 is labeled "Full Synthetic", but the only thing synthetic about Mobil 1, or any "Full Synthetic Oil", is possibly the additive package. The base used to make Mobil 1 is a Class III base stock, or a highly refined fraction from crude oil.

A true "100% synthetic" motor oil is made from a Class IV base stock, or polyalphaolefin (PAO) base. All POA based motor oils labeled as "100% Synthetic" have a higher temperature capability, or "coking temperature", than conventional oils. Coking temperature is where motor oil changes from a liquid to a solid, plus smoke and gases. A higher coking temperature is highly useful if you have a turbocharger or higher engine temperature application, like racing. A case can be made that a true PAO motor oil is not required in typical automotive applications.

From the seventies, Mobil Oil Corp was the inventor of "synthetic motor oil" and popularized Mobil 1. In those days, Mobil 1 was typically much more expensive than conventional oils because of the PAO base stock. Castrol later became Mobil's competitor in the synthetic oil market, but to cut costs, they began to market a motor oil labeled "synthetic", but made with a highly refined base from crude oil. Their argument was that the additive package was "synthetic", and therefore the oil could be labeled as "synthetic". Mobil took them to court to force them to discontinue marketing their oil as "synthetic", and LOST.

Clearly, Mobil decided if you can't beat them, to join them in selling "Full Synthetic" motor oil that isn't synthetic. That is the reason why Mobil 1 "Full Synthetic" motor oil now costs virtually the same as the top brands of conventional oil...Mobil 1 IS a conventional oil. If you're feeding your Tundra a true "100% Synthetic", PAO-based motor oil, you're paying two to three times more than what Mobil 1 and other conventional oil costs. Brands having a true, "100% Synthetic", PAO based motor oil include Redline, Royal Purple, and Amsoil, which is one reason why they are twice as expensive.

So...How did this myth about Toyota specifying extended change interval if using synthetic oil start? Does anyone have this recommendation to use "synthetic oil" in writing? My 2017 Warranty and Maintenance Guide confirms 10K mile change intervals, 5K for "special operating conditions", but the only oil specification is in the Owner's Manual: "Toyota Genuine Motor Oil (available as both conventional and a non-synthetic "Full Synthetic") or equivalent". How do we know the factory fill is even a non-synthetic "Full Synthetic", and not just a conventional motor oil? How do we know what we're actually receiving from our Toyota dealer's bulk tanks with our free "ToyotaCare" oil changes? Does it even make a difference?

I'll be sticking with the Mobil 1 since it doesn't cost much more than conventional dino oil. But, if your Tundra has always had conventional dino motor oil, there's no point now, if there ever was, in changing to a "Full Synthetic".

For more info: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NCT24nozMYM&t=1025s

That's why I run Amsoil Signature (100% synthetic).

To make the Mobil 1 issue worse, they also changed their formula back in about 2005ish and removed a lot of the zinc.


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post #4 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-15-2018, 05:29 PM Thread Starter
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sounds like someone just pissed in your wheaties this morning.
Nah, not at all. I'm accustomed to today's world being different from yesterday's.

This revelation just confirmed for me what I've long suspected: Anyone that is convinced Mobil 1 or any "Full Synthetic" is providing huge benefits over using Valvoline Premium Conventional is experiencing a "placebo" effect.

Such benefits would include extended change intervals. Because the base stocks are the same, logic says you can run the same 10K mile change intervals with either conventional oil or a non-synthetic "Full Synthetic" oil. Both "types" of oil will get dirty at the same rate, and neither has the higher coking temperature of PAO based motor oil.


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post #5 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 08:47 AM
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What I'm going to say is probably going to make people mad but here goes....

BY ANY STANDARD ACCEPTABLE DEFINITION, the English word SYNTHETIC itself is entirely misleading. Its not just a matter of marketing. Nor is it a matter of conspriacy.

Man creates NOTHING. He takes what already exists and combines, manufacturers or fabricates most any product.

Our own ignorant arrogance makes us believe we can actually bring something forth something from nothing. Which is absolute nonsense.

Whether something comes from a PAO base really doesn't matter. Mobil 1 and other FULLY SYNTHETIC oil bases are highly refine from natural crude oils. That does not mean they are innately worse than a PAO. It just means they are crafted differently. There are additives and etc that combined with these bases to form a finished produce that can geniunely be referenced as synthetics.

The 100 percent crowd is just as guilty in this marketing strategy to get people to buy their over priced oils.

Both FULLY and 100 percent mean pratically the same thing. The end result is an oil that is crafted from existing product whether they are 100 percent produced via chemical synthesis or not.

The average person is not going to run their engine in a situation that will cause FULLY SYNTHETIC modern oils to break down from high tempatures. The base is largely a "mute" point.

To me, its more about sludge. Even 100 percent Synthetic oil is going to get the "byproducts of combustion".
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post #6 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-17-2018, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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I wondered in my OP if anyone had in writing the recommendation to use "synthetic" oil in our late model Tundras.

I researched the subject more today, and discovered that the answer to my question IS in writing, but stated only indirectly in the Tundra owner manual. Clearly, only "synthetic" motor oil labeled "Full Synthetic" is intended by the owner manual since Toyota Genuine Motor Oil (TGMO) does not come in a PAO based "100% Synthetic". In fact, synthetic TGMO is not even labeled "Full Synthetic", only "Synthetic".

My 2017 Owner's Manual specifies that motor oil, preferably Toyota Genuine Motor Oil (or equivalent), should meet ILSAC GF-5, in recommended viscosity of 0W20. And, there, is the trick: While there ARE premium conventional motor oils that meet ILSAC GF-5, no conventional motor oils exist in 0W20 viscosity. Conventional motor oils typically end at 5W20. So, if Toyota specifies 0W20, and they seem pretty adamant, they are specifying a "Full Synthetic" labeled oil, or possibly a 0W20 synthetic blend motor oil meeting the ILSAC GF-5 spec.

I also ran across a long thread over on "BobIsTheOilGuy" forum that discusses the differences between Mobil1 (API SN, ILSAC GF-5, et al) vs. Toyota Genuine Motor Oil (only ILSAC GF-5 is relevant). The thread also discusses a possible answer to the mystery of WHO makes TGMO. Specifications for the two oils are compared, and the conclusion is Mobil1 is definitely NOT the same oil as TGMO, but that TGMO may very possibly be formulated to Toyota's specification by Mobil using an additive package designed by Toyota specifically for Toyota vehicles. All I know is the two oils do not SMELL the same.

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forum...Number=2463028


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post #7 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 10:54 AM
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I was aware of the Castrol name game from way back ,, but caught agast on this info as to Mobile 1 NOT being fully synth .
And if the original oem fill is synth and what additive packages .

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post #8 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 11:10 AM
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post #9 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-18-2018, 11:56 AM Thread Starter
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I was aware of the Castrol name game from way back ,, but caught agast on this info as to Mobile 1 NOT being fully synth .
And if the original oem fill is synth and what additive packages .
Yep, me too. Just what we need...lawyers figuring out what to name manufactured retail goods. "A rose by any other name is...a t*rd?".

Way back in the 20th century, I worked awhile at Mobil Oil's Beaumont (TX) refinery. I know for a fact that Beaumont was a huge, full-range refinery that turned crude into everything from light hydrocarbons (methane, ethane, propane, etc.), to cat-cracked high octane gasoline, to highly-refined lubricating oils, to bunker fuel oil, to greases, and finally to industrial coke.

There was a lube plant there, which in those days, also CANNED motor oil for numerous contract clients. If Montgomery Ward (a subsidiary of Mobil Oil Corp in the late 70's) wanted to sell their own brand of motor oil, Mobil Oil would make it for them under contract and bottle it, er...can it, in small batches on the same lines as Mobil products.

I'm TOTALLY speculating here, but it's not too far fetched that Mobil oil could make, or has made, Toyota Genuine Motor Oil at Beaumont refinery under contract, and transported it to the San Antonio TMM plant by semi-truck straight down I-10. They may have used the same highly-refined mineral oil base stock as Mobil1, and provided a different additive package specified by Toyota. If true, it makes sense that factory fill would then be TOYOTA'S VERSION of "Full Synthetic" Mobil1...Or...Whichever refiner is current supplier of the retail TGMO bottled product.

It was speculated on the BITOG thread (correctly in my opinion) that Toyota purchasing agents probably review the motor oil supplier contract every five years or so, and will chose a different supplier if warranted (price, quality, JIT reliability, etc).


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post #10 of 39 (permalink) Old 12-20-2018, 01:41 PM
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... So, if Toyota specifies 0W20, and they seem pretty adamant, they are specifying a "Full Synthetic" labeled oil, or possibly a 0W20 synthetic blend motor oil meeting the ILSAC GF-5 spec....
3rd Gen Tundra service manual specifies 0W20 for USA & Canada, but Mexico has wider range of approved oil :

"API grade SL "Energy-Conserving", SM "Energy-Conserving", SN "Resource-Conserving" or ILSAC GF-5 multigrade engine oil : 0W-20 , 5W-20 , 5W-30 , 10W-30
or
API grade SL, SM or SN multigrade engine oil : 15W-40 , 20W-50
​"

Does anyone really think engines destined for mexico are machined to different tolerances, or manufactured with different bearings & materials than USA/Canada?!

0W is advantageous for fast lubrication upon startup , and very cold temps ... but the mania for 0W oils is indirectly dictated by USA gov't mandates for fuel economy.

When the 3UR engine's tolerances start getting sloppier in 50K-75K miles, 0W20 doesnt seem the wisest choice ... at such time 5W30, 5W40, 0W40 may be a better choice. Many German cars already use 0W40 as their factory fill.

Nearly all reports I've read have indicated that "synthetic" oils, even the "pseudo-synthetics" from Mobil, Castrol, etc, really do have more desirable "viscosity vs temperature" characteristics, and also perform better under shear-stress (eg, high RPM bearings under load).

IMO, car owners tend to overthink the oil ... and if you think car owners are bad, you should read what some cyclists obsess over, regarding chain lubricants!
That is a low rpm (~100-ish), fractional horsepower application.
Even an elite, world-champion-class bike racer can sustain only about 400 watts (1/2 HP) for 60 minutes. It's not demanding compared to typical auto applicationm, yet people shell out $6-8 for a few oz of "boutique" chain lubricant.

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post #11 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 01:02 PM
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With the post 2016 engines that require 5W30 motor oils most companies provide both a 100% synthetic and a blend and if it is a blend it is clearly stated as such. My 2018 SUV requires decos 1 Gen 2 motor oil and oils that meet this specification include Pennzoil Gold Synthetic Blend and Valvoline Full Synthetic. The engine will get the same lubrication with either motor oil which is why GM and others state that a motor oil meet a specification and do not specify a synthetic or a particular brand of motor oil.

The simple fact about base oils is that with lower viscosity, there is an increase in volatility. In order to meet lower volatility limits, either synthetics or carefully manufactured base oils are required. The cost differential between true synthetics and conventionally refined base oils is significant. The solution to that is to make a finished oil that is a blend of the two, based on viscosity versus volatility. It’s not easy, but it can be done.

Multi-grade oil relies on adding polymers to the base stock which reduces shear stability. Shear stability is a measure of the amount of viscosity an oil may lose during operation. Multi-grade motor oil is more susceptible to shear and so oil very high stresses in certain areas of the engine such as in the oil pump, cam shaft area, piston rings, and any other areas where two mating surface areas squeeze the oil film out momentarily.

With the new engines the new motor oils they require needed to be more rigorously tested for scuffing resistance, shear stability, oxidation stability, and how well the oil can handle aeration. An oil that meets the dexos 1 Gen 2 specification performs up to the standards required by the engine manufacturers. It is immaterial whether the base stock is 100% synthetic or not regardless of the marketing hype, so long as the oil meets the specification.
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post #12 of 39 (permalink) Old 01-10-2019, 03:11 PM
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I wonder what people with electric cars argue about....


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I wonder what people with electric cars argue about....
They argue about whether their cars have emissions. They don't...because there is no tail pipe. Or they do....because they use electricity generated by burning coal.
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They argue about whether their cars have emissions. They don't...because there is no tail pipe. Or they do....because they use electricity generated by burning coal.
You should read arguments cyclists have about the "best" chain lubricants. :-/

Keep in mind that even the most elite, professional, world class cyclists :
- can only output about 400 watts (little over 1/2 HP) for 1 hr
- output about 2 HP for 15 seconds.
- drive train typical RPM 90-100, maybe reaching 120 rpm in the final 15-30 seconds of an all-out sprint .
- temperatures are always at ambient, so say its -40 F to +110 F.

Not very demanding , compared to a car.

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Performance motorcyclists are total nuts on oil ("OMFG ANOTHER phvcking oil thread" is a common comment). But they taught me to looooove Redline oil for my Kawasakis and Suzukis. Don't know that I love it enough to sell Amazon stock to fill the Tundra with it.

I'm not completely useless. I can always be used as a bad example.
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